Park Rides To Arsenal’s Rescue

Carling Cup 4th Round
Arsenal 2 – 1 Bolton Wanderers

0 – 1 Muamba (47)
1 – 1 Arshavin (53)
2 – 1 Park (56)

Two quick-fire goals took Arsenal into the Carling Cup quarter-finals in front of more people than the combined total of the night’s three other ties. It is Arsenal, it must be a crisis if only 56,628 supporters turn up. Never mind that this 93% of The Emirates capacity.

It is a side issue, one that distracts from the win, Arsenal’s eighth in nine games. That, irrespective of the spread throughout different tournaments, is light years away from the received wisdom that Arsenal is a club in trouble. The implosion at the end of last season continued as a poor start to this, was quick to form opinions. Tiresomely, the current run is not as quick to change them.

It is, of course, not as long a run as the downward trend but when does it obtain the necessary stature to reveal that negative spiral is over? Defeat at the weekend against Chelsea is no indicator that there is a poor run still continuing although I have no doubt that it will be perceived as such.

But that is to get ahead of ourselves. Last night is much more of a happier affair to talk of.

During the build-up to this encounter, Arsène proclaimed he had always taken this competition seriously. Nine consecutive quarter-finals offer support to the theory; to question can be perceived as churlish and an opinion saved for another day. As it is, Saturday’s draw will include Arsenal’s name and at the end of the day this is all that matters.

My perception of the match is tainted by my low opinion of Radio 5Live’s commentary team. Oh for the authoratative tones of Peter Jones and Bryon Butler. Google them if you are not old enough to remember. In this era of the cult of personality, the old school of commentating is woefully forgotten.

The first half was even, Bolton fielded a stronger than expected side but Arsenal’s was not the callow XI that is perceived. Park had the opportunity to prove the voluminous criticism of his purchase wrong, finding the linesman’s flag quashing his progress on a number of occasions.

Oxlade-Chamberlain had an early opportunity to enhance his already burgeoning reputation, he did not take it. The chance in front of goal, he is seizing his opportunities at Arsenal which is good to see and of concern in some respects, the weight of expectation must be realistic, not resting heavy on his shoulders. His learning curve is sharp, lessons in final delivery to be learned.

Bolton’s soporific start to proceedings ended when Pratley tested Fabianski in the Arsenal goal. Kakuta subsequently made sure that the hosts knew they were in a contest before Benayoun and Park reminded the visitors that Arsenal were well aware of this.

The second half had barely started when another bite was taken from the hand that used to feed. Patrice Muamba, like Sebastian Larsson before, scored against Arsenal two minutes after the restart, robbing possession before linking with Klasnic to find the roof of the net with a fierce shot.

Any joy or hope for the visitors was short-lived; within ten minutes their lead would be a deficit. Arshavin equalised, seizing the opportunity to run at the Bolton defence as they retreated, his shot finding the bottom corner. It may be an injustice to the Russian but it was a soft goal to concede in both the goalkeeping and central defensive work.

The Arsenal striker was not finished. As the Wanderers defence was forced backwards by his scurrying run, they left Park unattended. The Korean had already curtailed his run once when Arshavin released him on the left edge of the area. The finish was textbook, curled into the side of the net beyond the despairing dive of Bogdan.

The purchase of Park has not been justified, not on the basis of one performance. But the reasons for choosing him are more apparent than before and with Marouane Chamakh struggling for form, having a back-up striker who knows where the net is will do no harm.

Bolton pressed for an equaliser, they found Vermaelen in form and Fabianski proving his place in the squad is justified. Having suffered the misfortune of injury to lose his starting line-up spot, the Pole is seeking to ensure that the manager and team have confidence in him if needed. He pulled off some match-winning saves in the final quarter, a combination of ability and luck that any goalkeeper needs.

The result came at a price. It struck me as ambitious to expect Vermaelen to play the full ninety minutes before the match; his injury has unfortunately proven that to be the case. Wenger hopes that it is not serious, we must to.

It was pleasing for Wenger to be able to make eleven changes from the weekend’s starting line-up and end up with a positive result. The depth that he has in his squad is evident and enough for this competition, en masse. Individually, much of the promise is being slowly turned into reality and that can be no bad thing.

One final observation. Last night’s match was not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a TV. Is it beyond the wit of the Football League and Premier League to negotiate a contract that allows them to put out the games on clubs individual broadcast platforms when television is not showing them?

The quality of the ATVO stream suggests that it is a worthwhile experiment. If the FA, as short-sighted an organisation as you are ever likely to find, can manage to use the internet for an FA Cup tie and an England international and receive credit in the process, surely the clubs can do likewise?

’til Tomorrow.

 

Posted on October 26, 2011, in Arsenal, Carling Cup, Football, Premier League, Soccer and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 234 Comments.

  1. No I’m first

  2. I hope Vermaelen’s ionjury is nothing serious, of the regulars around me who turned up we were all surprised he was kept on more than 60 minutes. He was commanding while he was on though and made one eye-catching, probably goal-saving tackle int he second half also. A great pinged shot from a free-kick too.

    Good goals for Park and Arshavin, I think you’re doing the keeper a disservice on Arshavin’s goal YW, I think the shot caught him by surprise and he may have been a little unsighted by the defenders in front of him also. Arshavin seemed to enjoy playing in the centre behind the forward, it is his position after all.

    Yennaris at right-back seemed pretty untroubled all night, he played just as I like my defenders to play, I hardly noticed him. Miquel was good out of position at left-back also.

  3. another bloody win a.

  4. I’m happy that Park is coming along slowly as he acclimatises to the pace of the league. Better than throwing him straight to the wolves, I think. We will see whether he was a good buy in December/January, when the games come thick and fast and Robin will need the occasional rest. But his goal was lovely, evoking memories of so many Henry and Bergkamp efforts.

    Delighted for Arshavin. I think he needs to make his own opportunities in games to occupy the ‘hole’, rather than be given it as a rigid position, but it was a great reminder of why we all loved him in those first few months after his arrival.

    Overall, a good, battling win with lots of character – exactly the kind of game we would have lost 2 months ago. Crisis? What crisis? (And as for the attendance, it was ONLY 45,000 more than the next best-attended tie of the night. How pathetic we are, eh?)

    http://thearmchairsportsfan.com/2011/10/26/arsenal-progress-but-its-no-walk-in-the-park/

  5. Good news. The club has confirmed that Vermaelen is available for Saturday. He said last night it was just a touch of cramp anyway.

  6. BTW Yogi (sorry to be pedantic!) but last night was 7 wins out of 8, not 8 out of 9. I’d rather pretend the ninth game never happened, but it was *lowers voice* Ewood Park …

  7. and from what i heard, squilachi covered himself in glory.nothing got passed him.

  8. Tim

    I had a filter on my spreadsheet of Arsenal results. It removed the Blackburn result from the equation and therefore my contention on the run stands…

    YW

  9. competetion for places is now picking up..
    the run of games continues..
    chelsea will be the one..a win there and the flatform is set..the corner will be turned with pistons firing.
    the media are also leaving us alone..although they admit we are recovering from the manu game, now we are out of the top 4, their attention is firmly set on the likes of utd’s plight with evra and the 1-6..citys misfortunes with tevez and chelsea have a whole heap of shit going on too..
    we are sneaking under the radar, nobodys watching us coming..

    i never understood why wenger didnt take the CC more seriously in the passed..any competitive game win breeds confidence and any momentum is continued

    id be interested to know what the prices were for last nights game?? cheaper than usual..?

  10. yeah tim i seen that

    tv tweeted he had cramp hes ok..

  11. Just Another Luke

    I find Park’s readiness to shoot, and get them on target, re-freshing. I like him.

  12. jonjon, we are taking the CC as seriously as we ever have (apart from last season when we actually went for it). As Yogi said if you read today’s sermon:

    “During the build-up to this encounter, Arsène proclaimed he had always taken this competition seriously. Nine consecutive quarter-finals offer support to the theory; to question can be perceived as churlish and an opinion saved for another day.”

    By the way do you still think Cahill is what we need? Made to look a right mug twice last night and his team with the worst goal difference record and most goals conceeded in the league.

  13. It’s a pity I didn’t see your comments sooner. I sat right behind the Radio 5Live commentator and I could have slapped him on the head, if I had known how bad he was!

  14. Another interesting stat from looking at the league table: Only City and one other team have conceeded only 1 goal at home in the league so far. Any guesses? It’s… Stoke! Even better Swansea haven’t coneeded at home AT ALL in 9 games! Can that be right?

    After that it’s West Brom on 3. The us on 4 along with Chelsea, Newcastle, Norwich and Villa.

  15. Really loving the positivity slowly engulfing the club now. We may have lost 2 good players in Cesc and Nasri but I think we may have gained a lot in locker room unity. I think all the players now at Arsenal are thinking only about Arsenal and not about jumping to some other club. The young players all seem wholly committed to the club and have a great leader in RVP to look and learn from.

    🙂

  16. Cahill is still a very good player, his confidence is in tatters playing in that Bolton side, just look at their form and the fact that he has to play with Zat farkin Knight

  17. One thing I did learn from the Radio 5Live commentary last night that I had previously no idea of was that they use a lighter ball in the CC and as such it moves more in the air. No wonder teams tend to use different keepers for the CC and League if they can help it.

  18. arsenal will always be arsenal, no love for the hater. bravo gunner!!!!!.

  19. arsenal will always be arsenal, no love for the haters. bravo gunners!!!!!.

  20. Just watched Ramseys killer pass of the decade again for Gervinhos goal…Cesc ??

  21. My points for last night –

    1. If you live in London (or nearby) and didn’t go last night I hope you had good reason (I’ll let ST holders off of course). I went with my dad and two friends. His ticket was a mere £7 whilst ours were circa £13ea. Free museums aside, there are not too many great bargains in London life but last night was unarguably one of them.
    2. To those who did go – bravo on contributing so well to the atmosphere. CL games are often stilted in comparison to other matches – last night was proof this doesn’t have to be the case. the “who are ya” chants were especially voluble, vehement and valuable.
    3. Arshavin full of effort from start to finish gave a MOTM performance – just to give Pedantic George a large swiggette of ‘Gloating Fuel’. That said, after the vocal criticism of his last performance, it looked as though he was trying to prove a point and it could be argued that if he gave that much effort all the time then he would have FAR less detractors ready to moan about him.
    4. Yennaris played very well & out of position. Not seen much of the lad but he’s a worker alright.
    Found this, this morning – http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/10/25/nico-yennaris-battles-back-from-the-brink-to-be-the-next-off-the-arsenal-production-line/
    6. Miquel out of position too and a mostly solid performance. I like his focus.
    7. The next swathe of youngsters looks like they will really press for the first team – Bartley, Miquel, Coquelin, Frimpong, Aneke, Yennaris… Of course none of them are finished articles but you can see most of them will be good enough for the Premiership. Some judicious loans ahead.
    8. Park’s finish reminded me as much of Pires as it did Henry. If he has that in his locker and can let it out occasionally his signing will be lucrative in more ways than one. Best roar of the night when that went in.
    9. Wenger’s admission that TV had only played 20 mins prior to today – was it really necessary to play him the full 90? Seems odd. Still he was commanding and inspirational.
    10. Yes Squill played well but those who now think he is a better player than Cahill need their head’s read. I attribute Squills resurgence as much to TV’s influence than anything else (and the fact we are playing a Bolton team with near zero confidence) – calm down dears, calm down.

  22. Butler and Jones brought football to life for me. Their beautiful, lyrical commentaries painted vivid pictures in my young mind, of never seen stadia on cold, floodlit evenings. In my memory we were always playing Stoke in an FA Cup replay, and I would clutch my little transistor radio trying to anticipate the action through the crowd noise on the occasions it drowned their wonderful prose.
    Today we have self important, snide, semi articulate sarcasm. As with the decline of print journalism a great sporting tradition has been lost forever.
    Thank you Yogi for rekindling so many memories.

  23. Yogi nice write-up. Good to see our B team doing well and especially coming from behind to win. The Last half of the season past we rarely came from behind to win games. Also the game wasnt relayed anywhere on TV in Africa (atleast not on supersport which happens to be in alot of countries on the continent) so that was a disappointment but thanks to all the guys who kept us updated with their comments.

    Vermalean’s injury is a cause for worry but hope he recovers quickly to atleast be back next week. Now on to the next game.

    Come you gunners!

  24. As I work Tuesday evenings I for one very much appreciated the ‘as live’ coverage on the ArsePlayer ™ starting just after 10pm. Perfect timing for me and at last they’ve learned not to emblazon the score all over the page.

  25. firstladyy – now TV is saying it was just cramp.

    He may well be fit after all.

  26. I am in full gloating mode today.

    How strange that when Andrei is played in his best position ,he plays near his best.

    Where are the genius’s that were advocating for the Ox to play ahead of Theo and Arshavin?Can you imagine the carnage if he kept losing the ball like that against the likes of Chelsea?
    And before you all start moaning ,that he is not ready is not his fault ,it is just as it should be and as Arsene has called it .And once again the Boss has been proven to be right.And idiots like goonerton have been proven,well, to be idiots

  27. @ just another luke – don’t worry, we will train that out of him soon enough

    Yogi – I live in Aus, and would love to have access to a few payable streams every now and then. Cable over here is quite expensive, but is the only option apart from hitting the bars at 2am or finding unreliable streams. I suspect our American owners would be looking into this option, it is very common in the States. Baseball in particular has an amazing telecast set up given how many games they play, and they generate ludicrous amounts of money from it.

  28. Saddest thing for me George is you have to defend an Arsenal player on an Arsenal fans blog to other Arsenal fans. Ludicrous state of affairs.

  29. Steww, what is Arseplayer? I just searched for it on google and got back some very indecent results…

  30. Markus | October 26, 2011 at 10:09 am

    “By the way do you still think Cahill is what we need? Made to look a right mug twice last night and his team with the worst goal difference record and most goals conceeded in the league.”

    We must have the third worst defenders in the league then as we’ve conceded the third most goals. Mug.

  31. yeah i fear for the ox if Wenger plays him too much now as a large selection of fans have now given him the new saviour status which will be hard for him to live up to. a la Theo.

  32. Cahill would be a good 4th choice for us.He is not a bad player.But he is not that good either.Well not unless you are as thick as Merson ,that is.
    Block4, you are not thick are you?

  33. JB – Ha! It used to be ATVO (Arsenal TV Online) but they restyled it Arsenal Player. It is part if the official site. About a pound a week and you get to watch all the games in full usually the next day but in the case of the league cup it is right after the match finishes. The only drawback with it is Stuart Robson’s commentary. Like posters on here he has made up his mind on Arsene’s tactical shortcomings and only commentates on areas of the match that fit in with his favourite mantras.
    He also has favourite players and shouts ‘Well played’ embarrassingly as the ball cannons of their shin into the stands.

  34. Phew! I am relieved. Any time hear TV is injured i expect the worst while hoping for the best.

    Steww It really is sad. Now that Denilson, Eboue and Vela are not around, the new scapegoats are Theo, Chamakh and Arshavin.

  35. Vermalaen in the squad for chelsea, i wonder how the defense would shape up

  36. pedantic george | October 26, 2011 at 11:03 am

    I think you misunderstood my post. Markus was questioning Cahill because he’s part of defence that has conceded most goals in the league. In not so many words, I was saying that is utter tosh, which appears to be what you’re saying. No, I’m not thick, it seems you may have some reading comprehension to catch up on though.

  37. Firstlady,3 top players by the way,assets to any team

  38. Block4,fair enough.You are certainly right about me 🙂

  39. Steww it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect everyone to blindly support all the players at the club as though they are without exception above criticism – we all have our favourites and, in the case of many, that means that they are overly-defensive of a player, refusing to admit or even see flaws and are often offensive to anyone who disagrees.

    As an example, Arshavin had a good game yesterday but that does not mean his myriad detractors are totally wrong? Fans notice when a player puts in a tireless shift (it’s why players like Ray Parlour and Flamini become such favourites). If Arshavin tried as hard as he did last night throughout his tenure at Arsenal I’d wager he would have very few detractors.

    I respect the right of anyone to criticise an Arsenal player – so long as it doesn’t degenerate into abuse I have no problem. I might not agree with the criticism but then that discussion is part of what football fandom is about – never moreso in the saturated blog world of The Arsenal.

    “I may not agree with you but I defend to the death your right to say it” as someon famously once said.

    If you think it is ‘ludicrous’ to have to then defend that criticism then you really ought to have a think about what you are saying. Does your player review for last night read –

    Fabianksi – 10
    Yennaris – 10
    Squillaci – 10
    Vermaelen – 10
    Miquel – 10
    Coquelin – 10
    Benayoun – 10
    Frimpong – 10
    Oxlade-Chamberlain – 10 (he’s not as good as Theo though)
    Park – 10
    Arshavin – 10
    Subs – 10
    Wenger – 10

    ???

  40. I put up the issue of telecast on twitter yesterday, the clubs should be allowed to cut deals for telecasting these matches.

    There were a few thousands overseas too waiting to watch the match, in that sense an overseas tv deal for these matches would also not harm.

  41. Thanks Steww, sounds fantastic (aside from the lame commentating), I think I might have to get on to that!

  42. Jonny,You see I think Andrei tries hard every game.Sometimes too hard.To expect him to be a workhorse like Ray is to not understand what type of a player he is.Yo would not have asked Parlour to preform skills and tricks like Andrei so why the other way about?
    He is not exactly built to cover acres of space and if he did he would be in not fit shape to do what he was bought to do.But if you would prefer less of a “luxury” player and more of a worker in the team ,fine I understand that.That is opinion and preference and I respect that.
    But when people(and to be clear, I don’t mean you)call him a fat ,lazy ,useless Russian I reserve the right to call them “ignorant cunts”

  43. Great result last night and especially useful for TV5, AA and Park: each of whom I expect to be making a contribution to the first eleven before Xmas. Also useful for Ryo and Chamberlain: both of whom I expect to be making their contributions from Xmas onwards.

    Next, roll out the Chavs

  44. Johnny steww’s point is, some of this criticism is unwarranted. To most of these guys whether a player does something good or bad it doesnt change their preconceived notions. The player is always crap and should be shipped off.

    We should obviously criticize the players that we think didnt do well in certain games but others will over criticize all the time even when there is nothing to criticize. The same people will see no wrong with their favourites even when they are doing badly on the pitch.

  45. Thanks 1st lady that is what I was trying to convey. I take it farther I don’t give succour to my enemies by making public complaints about any of our players. Others see this as their god given right some think it makes for good discussion others (like the one called ‘ace’) are on a one person mission to crucify one player in particular no matter how well they play.
    It’s so pointless and not part of being a fan as far as I’m concerned.
    Forgive mistakes and revel in the sublime moments of genius. Trust me it works.

  46. It is very easy if you are an experience professional footballer to hide when things are not going your way, either through mysterious injuries that keep you on the sidelines or even on the pitch when you are never quite available for the ball

    Andrei Arshavin never hides

  47. George forgive me but, when it comes to Andrei, you are SO far beyond neutral I do not think there is any criticism of him as a player you will accept! You are an unashamed, undiluted fanboy when it comes to this player – and that’s perfectly fine but you should accept that it colours your perception.

    I can see he has good points and bad, but he has received criticism in almost every quarter of the media, from a large percentage of Arsenal fans and even from himself. I can’t dismiss all of that – and yet you seem to do so with remarkable tenacity.

    Neither myself nor his detractors are asking him to play like a workhorse – I think they have just lost count of the number of times he has lost a ball, shrugged his shoulders and strolled away. I am sure he does care – perhaps it gets lost in translation but last night he worked hard and even put tackles in. He most certainly does not always do this.

    I do not think he is simply lazy and I think many people lose sight of the good he does and go way too far the other way.

    Your final sentence is adequately covered in my previous post about ‘abuse’.

  48. “Arsene Wenger speaking in his post match press conference explained his reasons for not playing Arshavin in that role until last night.

    We have plenty of players [who want to play no.10] you cannot play with two wingers and two offensive players like that because you are too short in midfield. He is normally a wide player but he wants now to grow in a role behind the striker and of course, he can do that.

    He plays where you want him to play, but if you ask him honestly, he’s an honest boy, he will always tell you that he wants to play in there.”

    Sorry I stole that from Mean Lean .

    At least Arsene has the good sense to pay attention to what I am saying 🙂

  49. Jonny,you are right .I am blind to any shortcomings he may have.
    And glad of it.

  50. Firstladdy & Steww – yes I see that too but at the same time I often see perfectly reasonable points shot down by people who go too far the other way.

    Daring to suggest Wenger might have thought about doing something differently on here is oft met with disproportionate responses.

    I’m just saying it cuts both ways and for healthy debate to flourish we have to be careful to be open minded – especially when we disagree.

  51. steww

    Midweek games were always covered from 8pm. “Our commentary game tonight is (insert English club) travelling to (insert obscure part of Eastern Europe)”. If they went straight to commentary team, it was nil-nil otherwise you got, “Already there’s been action like this” before Peter Jones dulcet tones would paint a picture of the evening’s events.

  52. @anicoll5 – 11.42
    That’s true and more’s the pity – at his size he’d be our best hide-and-seek player.

  53. markus.
    i read the serman, thats why i deliberatly threw it in..
    wenger has stated himself in the passed that theres only 2 cups worth going for..the CC aint one of them..the fact we gone far in this comp is testament to the fact we invest so much money in youth..until we reach the latter stages and youth becomes our down fall..its not a reflection of us taking it seriously…its a reflection of our youth team being better than anyone elses

    yes last year was taken seriously though..and it seems this

    lets put it this way..if we lost last night the response would have been its only the CC, the lads got good experience..
    a win..and were all saying 7 wins in 8… 🙂

    and yeah..i hope cahills still on our radar..
    ive seen kozz score about 5 own goals, give away the same amount of penalties and make the mother of all cock ups in a final since hes been here…than doesnt mean hes a shit defender does it?? cahills quality bolton are just plain shit..

    besides, we dont want spurs to get him..id happily see the club pay cahill to sit on our bench just so them fuckers cant have him..

  54. Gary Cahill can thank his Chief Executive for not being an Arsenal player now. He was way over-valued and then for Bolton to insult Arsenal with those public comments about our offer was a step too far. He would have been a good addition to our roster of defenders, but he is not the saviour some made him out to be. I think he has missed his opportunity now and will probably end up at Spurs. I feel for him as he seems decent enough – he didn’t agitate for a move, which he could have done, so I certainly respect him for that. I think we all need to forget about him and move on.

  55. YW – other youthful memories. If there was a Sportsnight showing an evening game my parents made me go to bed early and woke me up to watch it. Bizarre I know but they were adamant I needed my beauty sleep. Like I could sleep with the prospect of watching Arsenal. That muzzy, late night tired but excited feel at the genuinely novel experience of watching football on the television other than MOTD or On The Ball also stays with me.

  56. “ive seen kozz score about 5 own goals,” oh dear oh dear. Abuse ends in moderation but this crap is accepted?

  57. Block 4, we’ve also had an unsettled defence with three new signings playing a lot of the games (Mert, Santos and Jenks). What is Bolton’s excuse? I’ll never be convinced that Cahill is the answer we need, end of. If that was the case we’d have bought him instead of Mertesacker.

  58. Alas abuse is easier to identify in an algorithm than rank stupidity.

  59. jon jon / passenal – it’s weird I kind of agree with both of you. I don’t want him to go to Spurs – he is certainly a good player but then what would we do with him? Hard to see him starting ahead of TV, Koz or Per.

    JD looks to be rediscovering some form too (though Cahill is probably a better player for my money).

    Anyway as jon jon says he’s quality – not super quality admittedly but then he strikes me as a player who could make the step up with better players around him.

    And yes – he deserves a lot of credit for not itching and bitching for a move during the great summer of discontent.

    I’d like to have seen him play alongside TV5 as they both bring a sense of steely determination and an unusual number goals to the equation.

    Be surprised if it happens now though…

  60. Give me Koscielny every day of the week and twice on sunday and I’ll choose him everytime over Cahill.

    I see some people are being their predictable usual selves, critisizing one of the most consistent players we have had this season. No offence to the other defenders but Kozzer has been our best central defender this season despite his few mistakes.

  61. steww at 10.38

    I concur wholeheartedly.

    ‘….and radford’s coming in like an express train. 2-1!’

    So much more romance. unknown grounds cold, wet and misty. Quagmire pitches..and of course we were much younger!

    Where are all these full stops coming from?

  62. Markus, Bolton are Bolton, they are a mid-table team and always will be unless some Sheikh turns up with an oil-barrel full of cash. Saying one player is no good because he happens to be playing for such a team is silly. It seems to me that we got a defender from a mid-table outfit in France a couple of years ago who has been one of the better performers for us this year and much of last.

    In short, poor team does not equal poor player.

    Cahill would be behind Mertesacker, Vermaelen and Koscielny in my opinion if he joined us. He would be streets ahead of Djourou, Squillaci, Miquel and Bartley though. And I think we would have bought him if it were not for the silly price tag placed on him by his chairman. When we could get Mertesacker for less than half that then I would have gone for the BFG too.

  63. Never said he was no good, but he’d be 5th choice for me.

  64. Well put Block 4.

  65. we did try to buy cahill instead of mertezacker..and jagielka, and jones..

    but all our bids were fruitless…so in came mertezacker..

  66. he’d be 4th choice for me if he came too..

  67. Good write up, thanks Yogi.

    I think Kos is like the Arshavin of of CBs (in that he goes for the riskier tackles) and more often than not, he makes them. He loves to nip in and get that interception around the attacker, and commits to tackles as soon as he sees the opportunity. His accuracy in the tackle is very very good, and often looks like he’s thinking much quicker than the attacker. Whoever thinks he’s not good enough needs to realise what game he plays and how effective it can be. It is only when it doesn’t work, it looks bad because he’s committed fully to the challenge. The fact that he doesn’t miss so many of these is due to excellent anticipation and determination to get that foot in. Many defenders playing this game would be hugely exposed as they don’t have the quality to pull it off. Some of the passes he makes are excellent too, looking like a deep lying playmaker at times. I’m growing to love Koscielny and would be hard pressed to decide on a definite pairing in central defence now. Mert, Kos and TV5 can be brought in for different games, depending on the attacking line. Very nice options now.

    Park took his goal as expected with the confidence of someone in rich goalscoring form for his country. A fantastic first time finish, very much like Henry as mentioned above. I think he will get much more playing time now, and could be the key to unlocking some of the tighter games, particularly if RvP is off form (unlikely) or being rested (much needed through the season).

    I am feeling much more confident about the Chav game now, and with most of our key players rested, and Chavs having a few suspensions and unrest in the dressing room, we have a good chance of coming away with a win this time. A point would be a good result though in all fairness. Bring em on.

  68. Jonjon

    We didn’t try to buy Cahill instead of Mertesacker – a deal was done for PM to sign on a free next summer. The start to the season changed that and the deal was brought forward.

  69. Jon Jon, remember Per said we tried to buy him a year before.

  70. Considering what we saw at Trafford Park on Sunday lunchtime I think Cahill may well find a buyer in the North West for his questionable talents

  71. really YW?? i didnt know that..how do we get round the tapping up rules on that one..if a free deal was done and dusted 2 years in advance?

    even so..if cahill, or any of the others come, big per dont arrive until the original argeement time..

    anyway..looking at another angle all it means was that AW had plans for two new CB’s…

    one down..one to go

  72. Cahill wouldn’t want to warm the bench, and that’s all he’d do at Arsenal now. I would much rather give our 3 best CBs rotation all season, and have Djourou, Michel etc have their chance if/when needed or in the cups. If we hadn’t got Per, then yes, Cahill would have been a good buy, if they’d dropped their asking price.

  73. @ Markus | October 26, 2011 at 10:21 am

    That’s interesting about the lighter ball in the CC. It may help to explain why Park seemed to be misjudging Fabianski’s long kicks in the first part of the game. I was surprised that everything kept going over his head by a foot or two. As the game progressed, he seemed to adjust and won more and more in the air.

  74. I was saying t’other day that Park looks to me like a cross between Chamakh and Eduardo. Judging by this game, i’d say that was fairly accurate. Hopefully more like Edu than Chamster at the moment though..!

  75. yeah jeff
    pers been chased for a while..didnt know we’d tapped him up on a free though..
    we chased jones for about 3 years as well didnt we..
    bid for jags two years on the trot too.

  76. Also we offered less (I think )for Cahill than we paid for Mertesacker.So if we rated Cahill ahead of him(which I don’t think we did)why did we not offer the Per money for Cahill?
    Have I ever said I think Arshavin is a wonderful player and should be let lose centrally and relieved of defensive duties?
    I have I said I think Kosser is the best defender in the league on current form?

  77. PG – I think you may have mentioned something along those lines… We’re all glad that you managed to let Wenger know, good work!

  78. if cahil becomes available to us on a free or for a fee of around 5-7 mil due to his contract i think we would be foolhardy to pass it up..

    no matter what choice CB he will be hes still a top CB and for a bargain we should take him..
    we always hear that the sugar daddies make it hard in the market nowadays and have squads of 22 top class players which makes it harder for us to win stuff…
    so when a bargain comes along and if hes genuinly intereseted in coming wheres the logic in passing it by and letting someone else have him just cos he wont be auto first choice.??

  79. JonJon, because we have other players with brighter futures who are much more deserving of a chance in the top flight. It really would ‘kill’ players like Michel, Djourou etc.

  80. @ pedantic george | October 26, 2011 at 10:53 am

    I agree with the gist of the comments regarding AOC (perhaps without the gloating ;)), in that he is clearly a player with a lot of potential, but he should not be seen as a saviour.

    Someone commented recently (sorry, can’t remember who) that as fans we tend to see players from other teams, eg Hazard, Gotze, M’Vila as being better than what we have and/or the solution to all/many of our problems. I see a similar thing happening with AOC, and it concerns me that he is being built up unfairly (ironically, not unlike what has happened with Theo).

    Before last night, we had seen AOC only a few times, and he had done well in his last two matches. He didn’t do too well against Man Utd (not many did), and last night there were others who played much better than he did. He showed that he is a good young player who, at the same time, has a lot to learn at this level. By all means, let’s root for him to do well and let’s enjoy watching him improve, but let’s give him time and not rush to judgment. I would hope for the same regarding Park. Many were questioning why we bought him and concluding that if he wasn’t being played in the last few matches, he must be not very good. Again, let’s give him some time to adjust. Wenger is not perfect, but he is usually a good judge of a player’s progress.

  81. i second that George, Kozzer has been immerse, i really dont hope he is the one dropped for TV. he was looking good with TV against toon and liverpool(till he injured)

  82. George

    Fully agree that Arshavin should get a run of his games in his best, natural and most preferred position.

    Where he played for Russia/Zenit and earning European plaudits is where he belongs. Electric, unpredicatble, defence splitting passes, devastating finisher, ability to drop his should and beat his man.

    I dont care too much for him not tracking back if he was playing as an auxilairy striker. Thats not his role. There are other players who are supposed to marshall the midfield.

  83. Geo

    The only difference is that Cahill is an England International. He is one of the best defenders in the world. And also he is a top player at the premiere league. So getting him will make life abit easier for us. Do I really have to say more things about Him?

  84. Wenger is not perfect, but he is usually a good judge of a player’s progress.

    I disagree 🙂
    And I retain the right to gloat.

  85. With Miguel, Boetang etc agree they have good potential, I’d like to see us really utilise the loan market to give them the development they need, even Djourou I think with a run of games has good potential still, last season he was at one point our rock. He’s still 24 and has played only 133 games to Cahill’s 214 so I doubt he’s the finished article.

    I agree Cahill is good but in a rubbish team but he still makes mistakes like many of our players we lambast, remember that at Arsenal one mistake isn’t good enough, at Bolton it’s more expected given the number of goals they concede so highlighted less and to some degree therefore less pressure. If they lose 2-0 instead of ‘it could have been 6’ then that’s a success, if we lose 1-0 due to a mistake it’s not good enough!

  86. Uber busy for quarter end so got to dash, but loving the form.

    Lets get a result at the Bridge, then we can kick onto another mini league with emmiently winnable games.

    COYGS

  87. “The only difference is that Cahill is an England International. He is one of the best defenders in the world”

    Ha ha fucking ha..

  88. How comes when we have a nice run like this we don’t see suga3 and his lot on aclf! On the other hand I’m not missing him!

  89. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that cheap shot.

  90. Just seen the Highlight again, Ju Park, looked really impressive. Played with a lot of intelligence and technique. i have a really good feeling about him, could be crucial in December/January period when matches would be coming thick.

    Oh and Welcome back AA23, we have missed you.

  91. JonJon @ 1.31

    Exactly. Would be foolish to pass up on Cahill for a snippet of his market value.

    Big Sack, TV, Cahill, Kols is a quality set of CB’s.

  92. Note to pansies who’ve been injured:

    “Vermaelen was in good spirits after completing 84 minutes and he doesn’t buy into the theory that players need time to find their ‘match sharpness’.

    “I feel great,” Vermaelen told Arsenal Player. “I trained yesterday with the team and I felt good straight away so I felt confident for tonight.

    “Personally I don’t believe in that [needing games to regain sharpness]. If I come back from injury after a long time I don’t believe in coming back and getting rhythm.

    “I think it is just in your head and a mental thing – if you are a football player you have to be there straight away. That’s why I wanted to play today and I think it’s good.”

    http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/vermaelen-i-don-t-need-games-to-be-sharp

    This geezer is a hard-as-nails bastard. Brilliant!

  93. i dont buy that arguement geo
    from a financial point of view i do…say if a player you want is 30mil but you have a up and coming player coming thru then i can see the club saying we’ll knock that one on the head and we’ll give the kid a chance cos we cant afford that..
    but when a players interested and his contract is running down and theres a chance to get him on the cheap?? it dont make sense..
    why wait 5 years when the ready made thing is looking at you in the face?

    i dont like the term ‘kill’ either..
    did us not signing alonso in 08 ‘kill’ denilson???

    if a players good enough he’ll make it, regardless of whos in front of him..

  94. In TV, kozzer and Per, we have three of the best defenders out there, Cahill would be Fourth choice pushing JD and Squilaci down(JD on his day is a rock by the way).

    i have always thought that our problem defensively wasn’t down to individuals, we always had out standing individuals, it was more of a coordination thing.

  95. @Kenyan,
    i guess im the opposite of suga3, i hardly blog when we loose, cause its to painful and i do a mini media shut down(Could read ACLF a bit, to get a little consolation)

    @Block 4,
    Vermaelaen is an absolute legend for that statement. It all in his eyes

  96. I believe it is Fabrice Muamba not Patrice.

  97. gooner2 – “He is one of the best defenders in the world.” Hahahahaha!!!! Ok, well my judgement must be sorely misplaced…

    My point JonJon, is that we don’t need him. We already have the players to make a very solid back line. Why get a player who will be one of the higher earners, who would be sitting on the bench?? (sorry Gooner2 – he isn’t one of the best in the world).

    For a start, he wouldn’t be happy playing 10 games max per season.

    I don’t like the term ‘kill’ either, hence the speech-marks, but there is no need to bring in yet another player (that would be the 10th player this season), potentially disrupting the balance that we are just about getting now, just so that Djourou or Squillachi, Miquel, Yennaris etc get less Carling Cup games. There are massive dangers in having too many players in a position, all of which expect to start every game. We will see those dangers coming to the fore at Citeh before long.

    Getting Cahill is totally unnecessary, and to be honest is just greedy. We have Kos, TV5 and Per fighting for 2 spots. We have Djourou who is excellent back up when on form, we have Squillachi who can do the job, we have 2 excellent youth prospects coming through. Is that not enough Centre Backs??

  98. Block4, if you think about it, it would be much easier for a defender rather than a skill player who relies on touch and vision. He’s also trying to stake a claim for a swift return to his previous position when he’s up against two solid performers. What else is he going to say in those circumstances?

  99. It was precisely because Wenger allowed Wilshere to develop quietly that he made his mark when he did, and a little earlier than was expected. Then he was clearly over-utilised by club and country, and hence injured. Same goes for AOC. His time will come. In the meantime he is young and has a great deal to learn on the field and in practice. I assume Wenger is working him solidly on passing technique and interplay, and when he looks like he can do it blind, he may get a run.

    I never had doubt about Park, and assume he was a planned purchase after Bendtner blithely said he’s off, fairly early in proceedings and Arsenal should not come knocking; not that I saw Park (a peak during world cup) but he’s not exactly a “raw unknown” (Wenger usually says so “this one is a risk, but we think worth taking”), his quality had been established and did I not hear someone knowledageable say he has a bit of a reputation for stylish goals at the right time; only that he was a bit off the radar in the transfer gossip column inches. As usual Wenger must have seen something to work with, to compliment Chamakh.

  100. Passenal, I think he’s spot on. He might as well say “Quit your jibber-jabber! If I hear you complaining about needing time to find your rythm again I’m going to kick you in the bollix. And I’m looking at you Diaby!”

    All joking aside, he does make the point that he’s a professional and he expects to be 100% when he takes the field. If players feel they need games to get back up to speed they should ask the manger to be played in a couple of reserve games.

    As jeff said, Legend.

  101. coordination and players complimenting eachother have been an issue jeff

    i also think a problem recently has been getting to the back end of the season and having to use our last resort cb’s for a run of games cos everyone else is injured..

    its happened 3 years on the trot now where we are left thread bare and using players we dont really want to for a run of important fixtures, simply cos we havent had the personell..

    weve been calling out for a stronger pool of cb’s for years..a stronger squad..big per/tv/koz backed up by cahill/jd would be nice, they’d all get games and it also means song can stay in midfield..

    mancity would spend 200mil to get them that type of personal in one position..
    weve got an opportunity to do it in what?? less than 35??

  102. Passenal,I agree,what do you expect him to say.
    I have said a few times he will struggle to reclaim his starting slot.

    If we were to buy Cahill what sort of wages would he want?so we would be paying (most likely)our 4th choice CB more than the 3 above him.I feel we would just be making problems we dont need.We would have to play him or up everyone else’s money.

  103. If we could say to Cahill, to come in as back up, and you’ll be likely to only play if there’s an injury crisis, and we sell Squillachi so we don’t have 20 centre backs warming the bench, then yes take him. The problem is, this will never happen – maybe because Cahill rates himself as highly as gooner2 does, and maybe because Wenger know he has plenty at his disposal already (and thanks for reminding me that Song is also an excellent CB option).

  104. pedantic george | October 26, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Passenal,I agree,what do you expect him to say.
    I have said a few times he will struggle to reclaim his starting slot.

    I disagree with your second sentence there george. I think he’ll be first choice come next Tuesday with Koscielny at right-back. I reckon he’ll be on the bench on Saturday, but then I did think he’d only last an hour last night also.

  105. how do you know he wont be happy geo??
    you spoke to him recently??

    we potentially play 70 games a season..

    i very much doubt per/koz/TV are going to play in all of them..

    and squillaci and almunia etc are earning more for not getting in our PL team than what cahill is getting paid to play 30 games a year at bolton..
    all this paying players too much money to sit on the bench business s nonsence..especially when we pay players who arent even top quality more money to just to turn up for training..

  106. Jon jon have you considered he might not want to come and be 3rd or 4th choice, even if we can cough up the money? You know it is not always about what Arsenal want, other factors are also in play.

  107. JonJon, I don’t ‘know’ anything about what he may want, but i can guess, and I am almost certain he wouldn’t want to come to Arsenal and be back up, ahead of moving to Spuds (or even remaining at Bolton) and be their best player.

    How do you know what they all earn JonJon?? Spoke to them recently??

    If we were playing 70 games this season, I would take that as an excellent opportunity for these budding young ARSENAL stars to have a go at playing against the best opposition. Nothing pleases me more than to see our youngsters learning right in front of our eyes, and becoming some of the best players, almost solely because they have been given the chance at a young age. They will be much more experienced that Cahill by the time they’re his age. They already have much more natural talent than him, so imagine how good they could be given the opportunity.

  108. if wenger knew big per was coming next year then why try sign cahill in summer??

    whatever way you look at it if we would have got cahill this summer we would have had 5 top cb’s for the start of the 12-13 season when per came and im pretty sure wenger knew this and had no problem with it..

  109. Yogi:

    Nice post. Another good win yesterday. Slowly becoming a little more optimistic. If we could get a point at the Bridge this weekend it would really be huge. Our away form so far has been terrible so we need to start getting a few points on our travels and this would be a good place to start. We need to stay solid at the back and having TV5 back can only help. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out with Kos, Mert and TV. I would like to see TV and Mert with Kos the starter at RB until Sagna is back.

  110. ahhh heres bill 🙂

    we are talking about the impact cahill will or wont have bill..
    as ACLF’s defensive expert..what do you reckon..

  111. Bill: “I would like to see TV and Mert with Kos the starter at RB until Sagna is back.”

    That’s a good shout. Looks quite a solid lineup. But Jenkinson should definitely play as much as possible, maybe against slightly weaker opponents. A nicely adaptable defence is developing. Plenty of options, even with the current injury problems.

  112. JOn jon I thought Almunia was off to westham on loan. Also don’t forget when we got Squillaci he was supposed to be experienced and good.

  113. Geo @ 2:11:

    Can never have enough good CB’s We have proven that fact time and time again. If we can get Cahill on the cheap then it would be absolutely ridiculous not to take him. You never really know how good a young player is going to be when he is 18. Look at the last “golden generation. 4 or 5 years ago, you, me and everyone else thought they would be dominating the PL by now.

    You will never “kill” a truly good player. If we get Cahill and Miquel or Bartley is good enough he will move past him in the pecking order at some point. It may take a little longer but thats a good thing for an 18 or 19 year old player. Young players need to understand that they have to be paitient if they want to play for a “big” team. Not buying experienced players because we did not want to “kill” our young players is one the biggest reasons we now have 6 silverware free years under our belts. At some point we need to learn the lesson from our past mistakes.

  114. I love how Cahill’s wage demands are being thrown around.

    Fantastic stuff guys. Keep it up.

    Wenger tried to sign Cahill before Mertersacker right? Mertersacker was brought in to partner TV right? Well would Wenger bid for a reserve or 4th choice CB before bidding for a first team starter? Well, probably not, it doesnt make sense by all accounts – ergo, by definition of your leaders actions, Cahill most certainly wouldnt and wont be a 4th choice CB who gets 10 games a year max (thanks Geo, one of your best)

    He is a f**king good CB. Fabio Capello believes so – who is a far more decorated manager than AW, I guess his opinion counts for nothing?

    Posters on here need to stop being racist and making assessments based on his passport / hatred for England / Its national team.

  115. *maybe xenophobic would have been a better word

  116. “Not buying experienced players because we did not want to “kill” our young players is one the biggest reasons we now have 6 silverware free years under our belts.”

    I beg to differ with this point Bill, We didnt not buy experienced players first and foremost because we could not afford it among other things. And real madrid with all their experience players didnt win anthing for the last few seasons, I guess alot could be said of anyone who had experienced players and didnt win.

  117. firstlady
    almunias on loan for a month and squillaci was a stop gap..

  118. “He is a f**king good CB. Fabio Capello believes so – who is a far more decorated manager than AW, I guess his opinion counts for nothing? ”

    and remind us again how many caps he has for his country if it is the criteria we are going by? I think personally the only reason we may have gone for him first instead of Mert was because he has premiership experience (everyone was putting too much pressure on that factor) but he seems to have missed the bus since we got Per who btw is turning out to be very good for us.

  119. Geo @ 2:42:

    No way to be sure at this point but you and I both think Jenks will probably be a good/great player someday. However, we are already walking a tightrope in the league table. IMO we have a better chance to win if we have our most experienced players on the pitch. Jenks is not even 20 and in league 1 last year. The last 5 years has proven that inconsistency and mistakes at this age are a given. Potentially surrendering points just so he can learn makes no sense for a team like ours. When Sagna comes back we should send him on loan.

  120. Why are we discussing Cahill anyway? January is a couple of months away, let’s enjoy the defenders we have now. We discussed the whole tranfer thingy to death in the summer, a break would be nice now.

    As for the weekend’s game I think Verm will be on the bench and that we might start the defenders who played on Sunday.

  121. You cant be serious Bill, Wenger bought Jenkinson as Sagna’s first cover? Why else would Eboue leave? and why would he want to send him (jenks) on loan?

  122. I am hoping that ALL of our players are rotated a bit more this season, so we will be able to kick butt towards the end of the season also.

    Looking forward to Saturday.I really believe teams are getting a bit nervous of our “terrible” team getting it together.

    Have a blessed day all!

  123. “Posters on here need to stop being racist and making assessments based on his passport / hatred for England / Its national team.”

    Luke, are you accusing me/others on here of being racist? That’s fucking outrageous mate. You need to think before you fucking type. I’d be pretty hypocritical if i was being racist against English players, considering i was born and have always lived in England. I work for a charity running many anti-racism events (including Kick It Out football tournaments), work closely with our local Mosque, BME organisations etc etc etc and you are accusing me of being fucking racist? I’m lost for words. Don’t ever accuse people of that shit without evidence to back it up Luke. Totally out of order.

    I thought you were a dick before… now I am getting more of a picture of your personality. What a lovely guy.

    Yogi – does completely unfounded accusations of racism count as abusive comment?

    I’m off now, was quite enjoying the debate before some complete arsehole lowered the tone.

    Thanks Yogi, peace all.

  124. agree with bill at 2.44

  125. Luke, As was already pointed out we already had an agreement to take Mertesacker next year. We just brought it forward, probably due to the injury concerns over Vermaelen. We only bid for Cahill because his contract was running out and we may have gotten him on the cheap.

  126. To be honest Goerge I dont know what you are gloating about! What happened is pretty much what every so called Arshavin basher has been going on about. No one has denied he has super super quality and that he can single handedly win matches. Butt ! The gripe that some have is that he is non existent in alot of games and if he does not have that moment of magic then he really does not contribute much. Its not his quality, its his consistency that has been questioned. Now he has one good game and you are coming in your pants telling the world you were right and they were wrong going on one performance,. I think your orgasms are a little premature George. You havent really been right about anything at all. When he has had a run of good games then you cam come out in full wank mode and tell the world how smart you are and how stupid every one else is, right now you really just acting like a stupid kid trying to big up himself.

  127. Arshavin played quite well against Stoke also. Seems he is gaining his confidence back.

  128. Had a fag and have calmed down now. Sorry but there are some things that make my blood boil. Unfounded accusations and particularly bandying racist ones about is right up there with the worst. Evra – esque.

    Basically this Cahill debate is the same debate as the ‘youth project vs experience’ debate of old. Some prefer to see the youth develop, others want us to buy media darlings who have that ‘winning mentality’. It seems the 2 stances will never agree. Trophies are a bonus to me, watching youngsters like Jenk, Yannaris, Miquel develop is truly a thing of beauty to me. Man City’s model is a thing of beauty to others. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

    I agree with Firstlady’s last few comments.

  129. @gunnerjones

    Please refer to goals/assists/distance covered stats before labelling Arshavin inconsistent/non-performing or lazy

  130. FirstLady @ 2:55:

    I don’t want to start this whole debate again and clearly there are many reasons for what has happened the last 6 years. I don’t think there is any doubt that we could have afforded to buy more experienced players then we did and one of the reasons we did not buy those experienced players was to avoid “killing” Vela, Denilson, Bendtner, Nordtviet, Merida, JET, etc etc etc. As you point out there are no gaurantees but I doubt anyone would disagree that in retrospect we would have had a better chance to break the trophy drought had we brought in some more experienced players and let the younger ones develop at a little slower pace. Can’t change the past but we certainly can learn some lessons from what has happened.

  131. For the first time I can remember – It must be years – we have every one of our four CBs fit and available for a fixture – we even have a spare Spanish one !

    In spite of this happy fortune it is good to see we can still have a good argument about central defenders though ;0

  132. Wenger has always talked about not killing players, I figure he knows what he is talking about. Arsenal is running the club in a way that there is room for the youngsters to come through. It is intentional, so I dont see us having a whole load of experienced players riding the bench.

  133. Bill – the difference before was, that we didn’t have 3 top quality CBs to choose between and be 100% confident in. We had 2 most of the time, and even then, their quality was under question for various reasons (personality, concentration etc). If they were injured, we had to rely on the likes of Senderos, or an unfit and inexperienced Djourou, all of which had a shaky GK behind them. We now have a commanding GK, and much better back up options in Song, a now experienced and fit Djourou, and 2 very handy looking young CBs. We haven’t had this many options (almost all of whom could happily slot into the team) in a very long time. That’s the difference.

  134. Well said Paul N

  135. i agree geo..
    it can all be rolled into one

    but instead of one side or the other..cant there be a balance..??

  136. why are we talkng about Cahil. Wenger will not get him now he has got in Per. per. koz.tv and metal guru would be enough for him. + squilly. the only reason Wenger would buy him is if Tv can’t shake off his injuries. He will go to spurs.

  137. carragher has scored a shit load of og’s as has Dunne but they are both quality cb’s. i dont think you can judge a cb on their og tally.

  138. I am with you Geo for the fact that Arsenal is run the way how you say it is. We may not all like it, but we are not Chelsea and City having a bunch of seniors sitting around twiddling their thumbs on the bench.

    I am not against the Cahil purchase, but like you, I think we should move someone on. We have Djourou, TV, Per, Kos and Squilly, not to mention the youngsters coming through and what about Bartley?

  139. There should be JonJon, and I think we have that balance now. We have bought in TV5, Kos and Mert – TV5 & Mert both very experienced, and we have adequate back up that we can rely on – despite their young ages. Kos looks as experienced as the next now.

    I can understand the want to hoard experienced players and have a squad full of first team players, but this will not work without the massive money Citeh have to ease the bench warmers’ pain. Wenger has a very well thought our strategy that keeps all players as happy as they can be on a budget. And aside from one or 2 wantaways, he has done an excellent job in maintaining this balance.

  140. “He is a f**king good CB. Fabio Capello believes so – who is a far more decorated manager than AW, I guess his opinion counts for nothing?”
    No Luke I guess its your opinion that counts for nothing.I repeat

    Also we offered less (I think )for Cahill than we paid for Mertesacker.So if we rated Cahill ahead of him(which I don’t think we did)why did we not offer the Per money for Cahill?

    Gunnerjones Just in time.Have you ever heard of humour? No? I thought not.

    In case you missed this
    Please refer to goals/assists/distance covered stats before labelling Arshavin inconsistent/non-performing or lazy

    Oh yes ,and fuck off while you are at it.

  141. “I can understand the want to hoard experienced players and have a squad full of first team players, but this will not work without the massive money Citeh have to ease the bench warmers’ pain.”

    Geo, may that never happen at Arsenal no matter how much money we have. I hate it. I, like you, get so excited seeing the youngsters coming through.

    I have never seen that kid Yannaris but what a joy to see that kid fight. He was immense last night.

  142. Luke

    You forget one thing about Capello, he is hamstrung by nationality when it comes to choosing players. It is not Capello rating him as a player per se, he hasn’t tried to sign him, for example. He has rated Cahill within the constraints of his job as England manager

    I’m struggling to see where your assertions carry weight. Personally, I would have said, “He is a f**king good ENGLISH CB”. Whether he is international class remains to be seen. Whether he could perform regularly at the top of the club game is untested and may never been known.

  143. Luke ,I am kidding with you ,you know that?
    Gunnerjones I am not kidding with you.You are a halfwit.

  144. The development of a youngster is a fine balance, one that can only be aided by games and match experience to some degree (using the loan market or having a b team league would help as I’ve said before, perhaps an area we could improve our choices in).

    We all would clamour to sign Hazard, Messi etc but remember, these are exceptional talents who are the products of academies and nurturing…why some seem so adverse to the same principles to generate our own star talent is beyond me.

    We should be pretty pleased we have some of the young talent we have and appreciate both the skill and balance required to maximise potential not least the opportunity if you get it right.

    For example Miguel could be very good, likewise we could be impatient, not develop his talent and then find he goes to spain (a la Pique) and become a success. Would cesc/wilshere be the players they are now without expert development and nurturing? Have we not seen the improvement in Song, the player Coq might be in a few years, the quality RVP has become.

    If we just want to buy the best ready made players and spend 300m then fine, if not then we should stop always wishing for someone else and actually appreciate the art of development, every ‘world class’ player starts somewhere, as long as we can get better at keeping hold of them then I’d damn well rather they started with us…

  145. Very well put Waz.

    And Paul N – we know, we know… 😉

  146. Its obvious that Wenger rates Cahill, if he didn’t, would he have tried to sign him? However to try to claim that Capello is somehow more of an authority on good players than Wenger is about the biggest joke I have read on this site.

  147. Capello’s hardly known for spotting talent. His squads were mainly made up of old players who have been around the block a few times, and known all over the world. If anyone is decorated in that area of the game more than anyone else, it’s Wenger.

  148. Good comment again Waz!

  149. Waz, that’s all very well. However, it has been proved that once we nurture these players and turn them into stars we don’t have the wherewithal to hold onto them as they come into their peak years. It’s a conundrum that I don’t have an answer to, but until it’s solved there will be plenty of people who will be less than enthusiastic on the youth development policy at Arsenal. It’s an easy argument to make that we couldn’t hold on to Cesc, Nasri, and Clichy this Summer while we couldn’t unload Denilson and Bendtner, for example.

  150. jack came into a midfield of cesc, nasri, diaby, arshavin, rosicky, song, denilson, rambo (no particular order) and still made a first team spot his own..

    if the young players are good enough they will make it and if we want to see whether they have the minerals then thats what we send players on loan for first..

    its obvious that the ones who make it are the ones that dont need 100+ apps before we say ok maybe we made a mistake..i wont name names for fear of being lynched..

    just look at the calibre of players wenger paid for in summer..not exactley all babies now where they??

  151. Geo @ 3:21:

    “Whatever floats your boat I guess.”

    We can definitely agree on that one.

  152. Awesome win last night but am still a bit pissed that it was not shown live. I know Arsenal player showed it as soon as it was over but really it is pretty lame that a team the size of the Arsenal cannot show their own games live. That being said listening to it on the radio did bring back memories. Mostly from days where, as a kid, I would be grounded for being (lets be honest here!) a right little bastard! No TV, No going out to play with my mates, No nothing really, except for the little radio sitting in the drawer by my bedside.

    There was many an evening I would just lie there envisioning myself standing just outside our penalty area as the enemy took a corner kick. The ball is whipped in to the near post but O’Leary, like a giant, rises above them all to knock it clear. Rix sees O’Leary going for the ball and knows instantly he will win it and starts his run early. I break for midfield!! O’Leary’s header flies out towards the byline but Sansom gathers it ahead of the enemy. The left back controls the ball and immediately looks for support and sees Talbot charging out of the box. He fires a side footed pass to Talbot. One touch and Talbot has it at his feet, two touches and he is in full stride. Rix is tearing down the left wing! Without even seeming to look, Talbot makes a pass that lands right in front of Rix, who is onside. Rix controls the pass beautifully and at speed, he pushes the ball ahead of him and looks up for support. He sees me and fires in the perfect cross. With two defenders to beat I leap for the cross, arms and elbows flailing all around me I connect! Like a rocket the ball flies past their sorry excuse for a goal keeper!! The crowd’s roar is deafening but I can’t hear it, as all I can hear is my Mother yelling at me to “Put away that fucking radio and come downstairs NOW and eat your fucking dinner! I’ve been calling you for the last 10 fucking minutes, do you hear me?!!” I put away the radio and follow my Mother down stairs but I am grinning like an idiot as I picture Charlie Nicholas scoring that header.

    Only radio can give you that vision of a game, just like the book is always better than the movie.

  153. George

    Read Moneyball.

    You will answer a lot of questions.

  154. Capello is certainly getting the best out of all our English world class stars.I mean we look awesome.Good flowing football.Inventive line ups.Oh yes ,he knows a great player when he sees one,
    By the way has Cahill ever been 1st choice CB or has he always (not that he has played much considering how good he is)or has he always relied on other giants of the game ( 🙂 ) to be injured ?

  155. The whole Capello debate is pointless…he can only pick english players…we could argue who would win between the current England squad against our best XI…pointless comparison. And AW might rate Cahill but in what context, as 1st choice, in case he didn’t get who he wanted, at what value!?

    Re Capello here are the defenders for the squad vs Montenegro:

    DF Ashley Cole
    DF John Terry
    DF Micah Richards
    DF Phil Jagielka
    DF Gary Cahill
    DF Leighton Baines
    DF Phil Jones
    DF Kyle Walker

    I’m sorry but they’re hardly all the best players in their position in the world (someone said Cahill is ‘world class’)…otherwise England would have won something wouldn’t they!?

    Cahill is good, any better than what we have? Maybe squid, poss JD when out of form, he’d be 4th choice and with less potential than say Miguel or even JD if he had a decent run(remember him last year) and at 15m… someone is smokin way too much tabloid nonsense.

    We didn’t get him, he makes mistakes and we have a good pairing of cb’s now that compliment eachother which Cahill may/may not of. Surely there are other other cb’s in the world we’d rather, I don’t mind a defensive debate but why is it purely around 1 player?

  156. @ george

    You certainly do finish with a certain flourish 🙂

  157. Bill, what about the 3.28pm comment? Agree with that? 😉

  158. Luke ,I was sort of hoping you would answer them

  159. Block4, how many players have come through the system and left?

  160. @ Block

    I agree, we definitely need to address it. The point I’m making is, we don’t have the money to buy 22 x 20m+ players so we should appreciate that an academy can be extremely fruitful.

    Barca have money, they still don’t squander talent!

  161. Stop flirting Anirudh! 🙂

  162. duke
    for the record i wasnt saying koz is shit earlier

    i ws making an example of how a top player can make mistakes but it doesnt mean they are shit..

    cahill got skinned by an on fire AA a couple of times last night ( who doesnt when he plays like that) and bolton are having a poor season overall..again..dont mean cahills a sack of shit does it..

    that was my point..not dissing kozz or his fuckups..although i wish in some games he hadnt made them 🙂

  163. Andrei skinned him? JJ?
    Was he good?
    Is he good?
    Tell me,tell me.

  164. The point I’m making is, we don’t have the money to buy 22 x 20m+ players so we should appreciate that an academy can be extremely fruitful.

    what about when that player is not going to cost 20m+??
    what if we do have the money in some circumstances, in cahills case..not a right lots needed..

    so although the academy is cherished and should be championed, theres situations where we shouldnt become too over reliant on it..when the players are there to be bought, buy them..

    the best players from the academy will still make it..

  165. george AA was gliding across the pitch last night mate

    agreed with you on this one so many times..move him centrally or sell him cos we are wasting him out wide….

  166. Afternoon All….

    Firstly – I might be old fashioned, but watching Football on the internet sucks, and Arsenal Player has done nothing to change my mind on that!!

    Secondly – In the summer, I advocated the signing of Cahill as I do think he is a good player, but with the progression of Kos this season and as Per get’s used to the Prem, I now think we have 3 excellent CB’s, along with more than capable back up in JD and Squill, along with some promising youngster’s in Miquel and Bartley.

    With that in mind, and with the usual restraints on Budget, I would much rather we strengthen the team in other area’s, of course, if we do in January.

    Unless he is available for a knock down fee and is prepared to fight for his place like everyone else…

    We were having a nice discussion at the ground last night as to who the 1st choice CB pairing should be out of Per, TV and Kos when all fit – believe me, it made a pleasant change!

  167. I’ve figured it out, I think Bigbrovar is Yogis son 🙂

  168. Geo:

    We are better off now then in the past, I hope. However, remember the great CB debate 2 years ago. OleGunner banging on endlessly about how we did not need CB’s and how strong Almunia was in goal, and G69 saying we had the best defenders in the league.(little smiley face). Things seem to be reasonably well at this point but I think we have all learned how quickly that can change.

    I know you enjoy watching youth develop and don’t care about trophies. However, did you really enjoy watching what happened to the last generation of youth? I still contend that if that group had won a trophy or 3 that a lot of things would have been different and that whole group of talented players would not have flamed out the way they did. No way to prove that. IMO having some success (trophies) is important for the development of young players and clearly it is critical for the development of our clubs commercial enterprises and long term financial success. Our reputation as a “big team” depends on winning and that reputation certainly affects our ability to attract those great young players you love to watch.

  169. @JonJon

    Then that player needs to add value, improve the squad, add quality and not undermine an exceptional talent breaking through. I completely agree with your last couple of points, I’m certainly not one who’s been saying through AOC in he’s our saviour!

    I’m all for buying players when needed, I’m all for having a balance between youth & experience (we got this wrong in recent years letting experience go prematurely), it’s vital. What I don’t understand is the constant obsession with buying someone else (often driven by the media) seemingly for the sake of it or the complete ignorence as to why we should still try to snap up the best young talent as every other bloody top club does.

    And I beg to differ, most top top quality is expensive due to the inflated prices, occasionally you get a bargain like Van Der Vaart or a good squad player but sadly money talks.

  170. Paul-N, I think the best way to look at it is this article which was on Arsenal.com a while back.

    http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/behind-the-numbers

    The academy was set up in 1998, so all of those players could potentially still be here if they were good enough (the majority weren’t) or if they hadn’t wanted to leave. And with some of those who’ve gone I distinctly remember people getting all weak at the knees when they first saw them play and thought they’d be world beaters only for them to fade away.

  171. Hope two Chelsea first team players get redcarded today!

  172. La Masia has had about 500/600 players through it’s doors, prob 5/10% have made it to first team…some have been developed elsewhere to be resigned.

  173. Waz, what timeframe covers that 500-600? Our youth system stated offically sometime in the fifties iirc, so I would imagine we’ve had a similar number though if we say on average, about a team full will be taken on every year.

  174. thats a top comment waz..
    cant knock any of that..

  175. 30/40 years, there or there abouts

  176. The thing you have to remember about the Academy is the quality a player needs to be to establish himself in the first team of Arsenal.

    If the hype is true, and the premiership is the best league in the word, and Arsenal are one of the top clubs in it, by that equation a player would need to potentially be one of the best 4-5 players in the world in that position.

    By that token – you would probably only expect a very small percentage to become established.

    It would be interesting to know if we have a target set over a period of time at the Academy and how we stand up against that.

  177. Block4, most of those players were let go because they were not good enough and/or not patient enough to wait. You said that we cannot hold onto them? Who are those?

  178. The academy has currently got us a potentially world class keeper and midfielder, I’d take 200 rejects to get that any day….much like I’m sure Barca would take 400 rejects to get Guardiola, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta

    And before anyone bitches, yes I know you still need to supplement with purchases

  179. the academys been pretty successful to be honest..weve turned over a high percentage of players at generous amounts over the years..

    alot of the players in the leagues have come through our academy..

    that turnover has been speedy as well..it seems we are always rebuilding and replacing players all the time so id just like to see that slow down a little now, we need to start settling as a club and reduce the number of quality players leaving and adding to them..

  180. No sign of goonerton today.Now there is a surprise.

  181. Luke, you’re an idiot. Cahill gets picked for England because there are only two solid, English central defenders playing in the top four at the moment and then there’s a huge gap in the table before a decent enough English CB is to be found. Smalling and Jones are the future and even when played together in youth tournaments they showed how poor they are as a partnership. Capello can only pick Englishmen, by the way.

    Here’s the pool of central defenders England currently have available to them according to the players Capello has called up:

    Ferdinand
    Terry
    Cahill
    Dawson
    Shawcross
    Smalling
    Jones

    Terry and Ferdinand are about through with their careers which leaves England with very mediocre central defencive prospects in the next few years.

  182. Paul-N

    The reason we can’t hold onto players is very simple. As much as we like to pretend otherwise,there are two types of loyalty, loyalty that is given freely is best but also loyalty that is bought with success.

    Arsene Wenger knows for a fact that not all of his players are going to be loyal if they do not win trophies, there are some who would stay without success because of their love for the club. But most if not all players want success in the context of their clubs ambitions.

    Which means as Arsenal objective is to be the best club in the world (from as wenger himself), players will become disgruntled and unsatisfied because their status as players has been elevated by the club’s stature, so has their ego meaning that if they don’t get the success that they think they deserve, they know that there are other clubs that want them.

    Arsene Wenger’s original plan was to have success alonside youth and also balancing the Bank, in a perfect world that is a gurantee for success. Unfortunately one of the most important ingredients was missing.

    Trophies.

    Wenger’s ambition is such that had his carefully masterminded plan of success and domination, we would certainly be one of the most successful clubs in the world and players would flock to us. This is the reason that manager’s like Sir Alex have respect for Arsene Wenger, and also many times the media as well as the footballing powers hate us. For the simple reason that if (and hopefully it will happen) we succeed then other teams would adopt our Model. Therefore, the football powers would lose out on cash and the premier league’s Renown for extravagant spending.

    So Wenger’s Ultimate Plan for football domination is only missing one factor, and we managed to break that barrier then i gurantee you my friends that Arsenal will be one of the best if not THE best club in the world.

  183. Waz: “La Masia has had about 500/600 players through it’s doors, prob 5/10% have made it to first team…some have been developed elsewhere to be resigned.”

    Mikel Arteta, Ignasi Miquel, Cesc Fabregas, Fran Merida, Toral-Harper and god only knows how many more Barca academy players we’ve nicked from La Masia.

  184. of that list wenger has bid for 3 of them..
    add jagielka to that list.4

  185. Just this season we have Le Coq, Frimpong, Miquel, Mannone and Aneke poking their heads in and around the first team. Then we have Ozyakup, Connor Henderson and a few more who have the potential to come in and stake their places.

  186. We may have bid for three of them, but we ended up getting a German with seventy odd caps for Germany which is the one we really wanted in the first place.

    I also forgot Lescott.

  187. Sorry to be pedantic but the lad who played LB for us last night is called Ignasi MIQUEL.

    Not Miguel, not Michel.

  188. Additionally I think you’ll find that for mediocre players, Smalling and Jones will go on to have pretty good careers…

  189. 3 players of note have left the team that came through the ranks as far as I remember. Cole (years ago), Cesc and Clichy. It was a good thing or each of them to leave.

  190. Additionally I think you’ll find that for mediocre players, Smalling and Jones will go on to have pretty good careers…

    So did Vinnie Jones,How good was he?
    What is your point?

  191. While, Arsenal have only bought 0 players for £20m or more in 125 years, MCFC have bought 10 players for more than £20m since August 2008.

    from twitter.(amended by yours truly.
    And we ask why we are not competing with them.Mmmmm.

  192. Pretty good careers are not unlikely for those two, but at their age level, playing against their contemporaries they didn’t show anything special. In fact, the goal that Spain scored against England in the U-21 tournament was scored by the smallest player on the pitch, off a corner no less. Perhaps they look better than what they are at the moment because they are surrounded by more experienced players and are playing out of position for the most part. But let us wait until they get games in the middle of defence against premiership opposition before crowning them the new coming of Baresi and Beckenbauer.

  193. Paul ,no player has left that came as a kid.
    Although we have only had 1 come through.

  194. Got it George. Block4 kinda made it sound like our players that came through the ranks are off any time another team comes in for them. I dont see that.

    As far as Smalling and Jones, now that United have been dealt with properly, we will see how good they really are. I felt from early on that not even Young is as good as he showed early on(I may be wrong but I doubt it). They were riding on a wave of confidence, now that has been shot to bits (the decline started against FC Basel, I think) we will see the real deal with many of the players.

    Funny how JD hasnt been biggin up United’s tracking back abilities of late.

  195. Cahill one of the best? Don’t make me laugh. Letting your man just run past you while you decide to attack a player that is already covered by TWO defenders … that’s a mistake you make when you are 18 or 19, not when you are an international with more than 200 games played. And I don’t think you’d see someone like Puyol, Lucio or even Ferdinand make such a stupid mistake any day of the week.
    Certainly Cahill’s performance yesterday was nothing to write home about and I would’ve expected him to up his game to impress us. He didn’t and at present, I can’t see him become anything else but our 4th choice — if he is lucky and JD doesn’t recover his form. If e can get a cut-price deal for Cahill in the winter and one of our CBs is out with a long term injury (like it always happens …) I wouldn’t mind to see us buy him, but I wouldn’t want to see the club pay him top player wages guys like TV and Kos deserve.

  196. George:

    Didn’t Ashley Cole come thru as a kid?

  197. Bill | October 26, 2011 at 7:03 pm re;Cole

    Indeed Bill.

    In addition Fabregas is listed as a graduate of our academy, so can go on that list.

    And the list of first-teamers who’ve left as they approach their best years in recent seasons (whether you’d personally would like to see the back of them or not), most of whom were little heard of in these parts before M. Wenger signed them and thus made them the “stars” they are today, is as long as your arm.

  198. Block, I really think you are going overboard with this.

  199. Limestonegunner

    Haha, Nasri (and Toure) starting for City in CC match v. Wolves.

  200. Limestonegunner

    On the other hand, it means guys who would be in our first 11 are on their second 11. Though Toure wouldn’t start I think in our first 11, would he?

  201. Joel Campbell scores again for Koscielny’s old team, Lorient, tonight.
    Arsenal strikers scoring goals here there and everywhere. Well. Sunderland.

    RVP’s 30 in 36 (is that correct?) is a silly stat. As good as anything Messi or Ronaldo have produced in a two team league, where they get a little more protection then say, Mr. Mason (don’t laugh at the name) gave to our Robin against the Stoke zombies. And RVP still got two goals!

  202. I still can’t get over the loss of Voltz & Boa Morte. Mortified. I was.

  203. And ex-Arsenal striker Anelka* misses a penalty!

    *Thanks for the training center/acadamy Nick. So long, and thanks for all the little Jacks.

  204. So, Nasri is a Carling Cup player now. Well, well…

  205. wolves have fallen apart

  206. I can’t believe we are still discussing another team’s player. When will some of you open your eyes and appreciate what we’ve already got?

    “If we just want to buy the best ready made players and spend 300m then fine, if not then we should stop always wishing for someone else and actually appreciate the art of development, every ‘world class’ player starts somewhere, as long as we can get better at keeping hold of them then I’d damn well rather they started with us…’

    Well said Waz

  207. “So, Nasri is a Carling Cup player now. Well, well…”

    Maybe that’s where we went wrong thinking he was a PL/CL level player!

  208. Coming in aged 16 is hardly graduating through the academy.
    I mean when they came as a 7 or 8 year old like Jack did.
    And Cole did not.

  209. Crap, what is the use of these linesmen if they cant see the obvious. Wolves shouldve had a pen.

  210. Passenal,

    Nasri is a good player, don’t get me wrong. But he performed only for half a season from 3, which is 1/6. Good business from Wenger to offload him imho. He was one of those who play well for a transfer and pay day, but would not perform consistently.

  211. Passenal @8.33

    Hell hath no fury like an ACLF-er scorned…

  212. Bit harsh George, Cole was a young teenager when he joined the club. We could be picky and observe the Jack wasn’t an Arsenal discovery, he was signed from Luton.

  213. My comment was kind of tongue in cheek Yogi, although I realise it could sound a little bitter – but who can blame me!

  214. never seen a 7 or 8 year old teenager Yogi,what does one look like?

  215. Yes you have George, walk down your high street….And L’il Jack wasn’t 8 when he joined Arsenal, he was older.

  216. Lol Yogi I thought I was pedantic .He was 9.
    Oh well ,I suppose I have to concede .

  217. ET for Chelsea.
    Only one or two probable starters for the weekend game have played 90 minutes. But three or four will have played sixty odd minutes.

  218. Will have played sixty odd minutes by the end of the match.

  219. i hear there is an offer on the table for theo. strange, i thought he’d gone.

  220. Arsenal, Man utd, Liverpool, Man city, Chelsea……………Carling cup is gonna be pretty exciting this season

    Dear God of football, all i ask for is a home fixture in the next round

  221. When is the draw for the next round of the Carling Cup?

  222. @todd,
    did you take Theo away???

  223. Passenal

    CC draw is on Sat.

    Jeff

    I think todd was trying a little humour. Failed miserably though.

  224. Did anyone happen to catch the Blackburn v. Newcastle game? A friend who is a Geordie says, though they lost, it was one of the best games so far this season for sheer entertainment. Personally I am just glad their unbeaten ruins over, it was really starting to annoy the hell out of me.

    Oh yea, fuck Cahill!!! If we are going to drop 15 million on a CB, then we should go shopping in Europe. Screw the “he has EPL experience” shite. When TV showed up he had no EPL experience and he played better than almost any other CB in the league!! For that money we must demand someone as good as, if not better, than TV. And as for saying Capello picks him, HA!! What fucking choice does he have? That would be like me claiming Richard Dunne is “World Class” just because he plays for Ireland. Fact is he is the best we have (I hate reading that) but that just means he is picked for Ireland and nothing else. That being said I would still hav Dunne over Cahill. And no I am not just being stubborn!!! Well, maybe just a little,tiny bit but that’s all.

  225. What you would have Dunne at Arsenal before Cahill.
    Now stop being silly.
    I have not forgotten you and BRF last night.Making a monkey out of yours truly

  226. Limestonegunner

    No way Bolton can demand the same price for Cahill in January when he is on a free in June. 15 million isn’t even in the equation. Realistically it is down to 7-10, plus or minus a couple. Let’s not exaggerate the cost.

  227. PG – In as much as I was just being pedantic myself, Dunne put on a one man show against Russia for Ireland recently. He even managed to save everything Arshavin threw at him. One of the most impressive CB displays I have seen in several years. I never knew he had it in him to be honest and if we Irish do make it to the Euros it will because of THAT display. I for one can never imagine Cahill doing the same for England but then again I said the same about Dunne, so WTF do I know? 🙂

    And as for myself and BRF last night, it was more a cute little hamster than a monkey. Don’t like monkeys, sneaky evil bastards if you ask me.

  228. Dunne at Arsenal? Never liked the thought of that – still remember him as the lumbering oaf at Man City years ago when Henry made a fool of him.

  229. YW

    Bit unfair on Dunne. Henry made many CBs look like lumbering oafs (many were of course).