Ambitions – The Life And Death Of A Football Club

The tour party announced yesterday has enabled a welter of spin and speculation to reign supreme this morning, the absence of Robin van Persie took focus away from those who remain in England with him. Whilst Arsène told the world that he was not giving up on the relationship, the Dutchman’s representatives have been busy telling all and sundry what all and sundry have been offering as salaries. Ambitions are laid bare; £10.1m is the sum total of his ambitions.

By some strange quirk of fate, that is £30k per week less than Manchester City have reportedly offered but more than Manchester United will pay. Juventus managed to guess correctly that van Persie would want substantially less than Zlatan Ibrahimovic and must surely have won? That’s the ideal world but according to The Sunday Times, van Persie is an old romantic at heart and favours United whilst his agents are torn between their client’s wishes and the rich pickings that City will pay them in commission. Arsenal can brief just as well as the agents it seems, with the real divergence of views on the club’s future revealed for all to see.

No doubt that this is Arsène’s fault. If he had not wasted the money on Bendtner, Vela, Denilson, Squillaci and Chamakh, Arsenal could pay those wages. And he wants to try out an unknown French forward for more than £6m. Caen you dig it? Yes, they can. When will he learn, eh?

Football is at once divisive and uniting; a common aim but so many different ways in which to achieve it. So many different ways for hypocrisy to shine through. Casting out those deemed no longer fit for purpose has been an aim of this summer; a realignment of the squad to rationalise the salary structure. Yet when that has not happened by the end of June, knives are sharpened, criticism rains in.

But in trying to restructure the wages paid to the playing staff, Arsenal are now caught in a web of ambitions and greed. It is easy to pontificate about selling the above quintet but the reality is proving somewhat trickier. The manager for example, is finding himself stifled in the transfer market,

We are still looking to add one or two players but it depends also on how many go out because we have to respect the squad number. It’s important to respect that so before we get players in we have to get some players out. That has not happened yet, the market is very quiet.

I cannot tell you anything concrete about the situation [regarding those who might leave] because if they are not finding clubs they will stay here and be players of the squad. At the moment I cannot give you any concrete or clear indication.

He is as usual clever with his words. They can be “players of the squad” and yet not play. It is a test for those individuals and leaves a gap for interpretation. Are they actually holding transfers back or is it a case of we cannot sign anyone until they depart for financial reasons?

On a simplistic level, it is the latter. The number of players in the squad is largely irrelevant, you do not have to name every player as part of the 25 for the Premier and Champions Leagues. They can train and train but never play, other than the Capital One Cup-ties. That then brings their ambitions into focus. Squillaci I can understand, an older player who could quite happily take a paypacket home each week with little damage to his career in comparison to Bendtner and Chamakh. They are internationals and the Dane certainly has ambitions to play otherwise he would not go on loan.

But what of Chamakh? Hookah pipes aside, he seems content not to rock the boat by demanding a move. Fair enough he does not have to, he is contracted to Arsenal and is entitled to his wages. However, he is already facing challenges for his spot in the international squad so has his spell in England killed all of his footballing ambitions? Or is a tour of the Far East as good as he thinks life is going to get?

Arsenal of course can resolve the issue. Pay the players off, a lump sum and your registration, go to another club. That causes monetary loss but as a one-off, surely that is acceptable to the owner(s)? It solves a problem and strengthens their position in terms of moving forward. Those who have no future at the club are given control of their own destinies once more, given their sporting careers on a plate and left with no regrets about wasting two or three years seeing out contract.

This option might be considered ‘nuclear’; it is but there is so much antagonism hanging over the club that we need to move on from this. Refining the club over a period of time is the Arsenal Way; organic change rather than short, sharp shocks. Perhaps that is what we need. The club signals time and again that they are changing commercially, becoming more savvy about deals. For all of the loyalty being shown to the club by those deemed to be leaders on the pitch, why should the club bother with any of them. Footballers are the commodity now; players want power, money and riches? This is the fallout.

That is modern football for you. Pay or play. Where’s Jon Stark, Football Mercenary when you need him?

’til Tomorrow.

 

Posted on July 22, 2012, in Arsenal, Football, Premier League, Soccer, Transfer Gossip and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 333 Comments.

  1. riproarringred

    Good post YW

  2. How much would that cost, do you think, Yogi?

  3. They’ll all go. We shouldn’t worry. As you say, Squid might be the exception.

  4. Realistically, that trio could probably be released from their contracts for around £10-15m. As a one-off hit, the club can take it, especially with the profits being shown on any RvP sale – his cost has long been written down – compensating for FFP purposes.

    The real cost? Giving people control of their lives again – as in the players – and having a sense of worth. Can you put a price on that?

  5. Are you suggesting that releasing the players would give Arsenal a “..sense of worth”, Yogi?

    Don’t you know that you should ‘not bring ethics and morals into football’?

  6. I know, it’s a failing Bob. Maybe I am too old to change my ways. As you said yesterday, why should football be exempt from the application of morals.

  7. Ethics? Morals? On a Sunday? Good lord whatever next. I just woke up in a layby, ate a banana and read this fine post. Off into the woods to find a tree leaning at just the r
    ight angle. See you later.

  8. Pay off the players? How much would it cost?
    Assuming if chamakh is on 50k and has 2 years left, it amounts to 5.2 million.
    Of course I don’t have a scooby about what the players are on but give or take a few 10k per week off loading two or three such players could cost anywhere between 5-15 million. It’s clear that AW wants some players to go in order to improve the squad. Would the owners agree? I don’t think so.
    Very good post YW. Food for thought

  9. Morning…I still agree with Ateeb

  10. Or you could not name said players in the 25, only use em for cup games, and hope the preservation of their careers move them to get themselves a move and not hold onto their wage demands if a new club cant match it

  11. Why should we pay off their contracts? Why do we have to take the hit? If they have ambitions to play football somewhere else let them take a pay cut. Arteta did.

  12. Press conference in Malaysia: “Wenger on Van Persie: “He is world class, and I have supported him for his whole career. Our desire is to keep him.” ”

    Turning the screws or just PR?

  13. Gazidis sitting next to AW btw

  14. I dont quite get why so many players didnt go on the tour. I know le boss cites fitness and conditioning but a few games together would help the new guys to settle in and they can surely do the same fitness work on tour, right? How many other warmup games before the season starts will they have to bed into the team?

  15. Vela has just been sold – for about 3 m euros. The others will go too. We won’t have to pay out their contracts.

  16. At a time wen d excitement of the coming back of football should fill us, the contract situation of our players is taking most of the headlines. I’ve been away from the comment section for a while though I’ve been reading the blog everyday. How I wish RVP will realise hw much this club have missed because of him. We’ve wasted a lot of years waiting for him to be fit and the only thing we get back from him is to beat us with the cane of ambition. I think d time of loyalty to the player by the manager and club should come to an end. I hope Diaby won’t hv his breakthrough season this year and say the same to us next summer. Ranting over pls pardon me.

  17. I see that Young Mr Grace and his chaps together with their new American buddy are about to undermine AW…….again. Much more of this and he has to be Young Mr Disgrace. Fuck it thats it, Young Mr Disgrace it shall be. That’s another fine mess you got us in, Sanley.

  18. Good morning all you good folk of ACLF. Greetings from the East African ighlands.

    So what’s this morals and ethics stuff all about on a Sunday? Don’t you every learn Consols and Yogi?

    By the way, RVP talk is also occupying the footballing population this part of the world. You can’t enter anywhere without hearing whispers and guess work about where RVP is going. Some Arsenal fans have even esorted to calling him Robin van Pussy – but then again, who would blame them.

    When does the season start again? This silly season is way past its sell by date.

  19. If most people in your street drive a Ford Mondeo and someone wins the lottery ,and buys themselves a Bentley,that does not make the “going rate” car a Bentley .
    People who are suggesting that we pay wages that match the Oily rich lottery winning clubs are just plain fucking idiots.
    One of the reasons I love Arsenal is that I believe(perhaps down to the Manager more than anything else) that the clubs”ethics and morals”are a cut above.
    My favorite posters on ACLF and the people I like most in life also have ethics and morals .
    To those who don’t rate such things important I say……………….oh well its Sunday so I will leave it at that.
    Lovely article YW .As ever.

  20. I would suggest that RvP is neither a Ford Mondeo or a Bentley, the car that Young Mr Disgrace probably drives. Custom built Maserati is what he is…..or that sort of thing. What is the going rate for a custome built high performance car? I would also suggest that we are not really going to get anywhere with the player equivalent of a Ford Mondeo or a Bentley. Best get back to chopping wood, snarky.

  21. has anyone heard what steve stammers had to say about us last night on talkshite??

    who is steve stammers and how do we view his reputation?

    i dont really know who he is, ive heard of him, but not enough, until last night and i thought he was good..

  22. pedantic george

    A few years ago Gerrard was about to leave Liverpool and sign for Chelsea.He turned on SPN and saw Liverpool fans burning his picture and shirts with his name on the back,He thought WTF am I doing .These people loved me an I am letting them down.He changed his mind and is still at Liverpool now.
    All hope is not lost until RVP puts pen to paper.He may yet realise he is letting himself ,the club and the fans down.
    On the other hand he might just be the mercenary cunt he has appeared to be from the moment he released his pathetic statement.

  23. pedantic george

    Frank .Fuck offf you pathetic bitter cunt

  24. frank..
    from what SS was saying last night AW has a price set on rvp, a price that will compensate the club if we miss out on CL next season..
    if its not met, he wont be sold..
    simple..

    if the suits and boots step in, he may well be, and not for the price AW has set..

    if this happens then i think AW should walk..

    fuck em..if they are going to look at the profit margin every time then they dont deserve the best players nor do they deserve the best manager..

  25. In my opinion we need Yogi’s ‘nuclear’ option to speed up the implementation of the more hierarchical wage structure Ivan talked about.

    We have to get rid of all the players on our ‘sell’ list even if we make losses doing so. Keeping them because no one matches our valuation could do us more harm than good, financially and in football terms. After all the reason we want to sell them in the first place is because they’re either not considered good enough by the manager, or want to leave. Keeping such players on the books will also affect our ability to move swiftly away from a flat wage structure.

    The hierarchical structure is the only way that works in a capitalist system. The ability to offer competitive wages to our stars is vital in our quest for silverware. On the other hand offering the ‘lower value’ players relatively large wages doesn’t make them perform any better.

  26. Good read as usual.
    Most times when you buyout the remaining of a players contract you get a “discount” cause they can immidiately go sign for free with another team which can secure the player a fair sign-on fee. Another issue is if the said players want their contracts to be bought out.

    If we can send the “undesireables” on loan untill their contract runs out I have no issue with that. On the other hand if we try to act decent and spend a squad spot on any of those, then it will surely hurt the overall strenghts of the squad. And that should really not happen, then its better simply to take the loss and buyout thier contracts.

    That leads me to the last thing. I would like Arsenal to wipe the slate clean and take an indebt look at the squad and deside wich 25 players should be named. If the club cant find 25 names from the current player pool then get those 2-3 spots filled. After they done that offer all they want to keep a 5 year contract. That will at least secure the same players together for 3-4 years without this transfer debacle we se every year.

    Ofc I know its not that simple and probably cant even be done. But one can wish sometimes, cant one?

  27. JonJon – Steve Stammers is a local hack who writes for one of the red-tops. He’s an Arsenal fan, though for self preservation, he tries to keep his distance at times so he’s not lynched by his colleagues.

    I must say though, I haven’t thought of Talk Spite radio for nearly 3 months – I’d even forgotten they exist. Adrian Durham and Alan Brazil must be having a ball about Arsenal and Van Persie.

  28. Now, now, george. Just a bit of fun.

  29. i dont think we should take a hit on all contracts..teams are interested in our players

    we just need to lower our demands..give them away for free if we have to..

    we’ll shift em..

  30. Darius – TalkSport have abandoned all pretense of any form of balance in either their formal reporting or their discussion slots (assuming they had much in the first place).

    No doubt they think it’s clever to paint as negative a picture as they possibly can about the club but all they are really doing is undermining themselves and the station. These days, if any of my own views happen to chime with theirs I immediately question the veracity of those views, such is the absence of credibility I now attach to the station.

    Shame really; there MUST be a sizeable listener market for a really decent sports station …

    Tremendous posts especially in these last few days, YW.

    Difficult times, for club and fans.

  31. I just hope that this whole thing is resolved soon.

    If Arsene really does want RvP to change his mind, not traveling to to Asia is not a great start. The more he is separated from his teammates and the manager, the less likely he is to change his mind. Whilst he is back here he is have is agent in his ear constantly and Arsene won’t be able to convince him otherwise.

  32. darius

    he seemed to be holding the fort last night..
    i think he was on with helen chamberlain and she was asking questions that seemed designed to follow the media myths and SS batting her out of the ground..

    had many good points…she was banging on about squad depth and he said we had 11 surgerys last year..every team gets smashed with injuries but we had 11 players that went under the knife..

    he also said wengers not fucking about with the rvp situation. AW wants the player to stay and only an unseen amount of money will get us to part and hes not budging on the price hes set, which is supposed to be 30 mil

    wengers testing the FFP resolve, we shall see whos actually afraid of it…

  33. Yogi – fine commentary!

    On most Arsenal fans minds is the memory of last summer and frustration of late signings and dispersement of marginal players (sold or on loan).

    The rest of the clubs are accustomed to waiting….. and add the leverage of shortness of time with their negotiations.

    It is only the 3rd week in July, and ‘push come to shove time’ is later in August. I trust the manager and club have been working diligently behind the scenes since early last season
    (exit strategy for the marginal players)

    As we settle into August, managers at clubs needing a bona fide striker (RvP) will be pressuring their boards to pony up realistic bids.

    Whatever the club’s position and decision, I trust they have a better grasp of the overall situation(s) to correctly decide.

    Sahil
    sorry not to respond to your reply yesterday (artist and producers/ overpaid/risk), I just believe it was a subject of endless interpretation. Philmar gave a more detailed commentary later that day.

    There does seem to be a trend with the more profile players that money shouts louder than the club and fans expecting ‘loyalty of service’. The business side of the game is now prevailing from the club perspective and players. Fans are caught in the middle.

    3rd week in July and I like what I see for Arsenal starting the season.

  34. If they want away,, once that thought is in a players head they are already gone let them go and get as much as you can .

  35. “he also said wengers not fucking about with the rvp situation. AW wants the player to stay and only an unseen amount of money will get us to part and hes not budging on the price hes set, which is supposed to be 30 mil”

    I wonder we did not take the same stance last year with Cesc? We had even more reason to do so as he was not in his last year. Maybe Arsene has looked how he handled that situation and realised we pretty much got screwed over and is determined not to let it happen again.

  36. The best way to change the tone by pundits and media is to start winning.

    Very little talk time and printed space is designated for the average teams. Everyone tends to attach themselves to the bandwagon and you can see that few (if any) have convictions…..its safer to be a follower when reporting.

  37. Andy

    I looked at that quote and had a different interpretation. Cesc was only being pursued by Barca. There seem to be more clubs involved for RvP’s services and Arsene is making a point that $10mil to $15mil is acceptable.

    By clearly stating he will keep the player and referencing a transfer amount, imo, I think he is only playing poker.

    There are many big clubs that need a proven overall talent like RvP. (especially Arsenal)

  38. Andy
    ” $10mil to $15mil is acceptable.” Unacceptable.

  39. GA – the consensus seemed to be as Cesc was only ever going to Barca there was no bidding war no way to drive up the price.

  40. Sorry Arsession – posts crossed.

  41. Think that is exactly right, Arsesession – but kind of undermines the whole point of the media really, for me, anyway.

    Must admit also, given the length of his contract still to serve, I was surprised at how little we got for Fabregas in the end.

    Maybe RvP will be Wenger’s revenge? Wouldn’t blame him; would imagine the thought of Barca laughing at him and the club is not something he’d look to repeat anytime soon.

  42. It is clear that a number of our strike force are on their way out, or are already gone (Vela, Bendtner, Park?), but has AW given up on Chamakh yet? He appears to be the only senior striker on the tour and this must be a chance for him to impress the boss if he does want to stay at the club, especially if RVP goes. It is also not clear what AW’s plans are for Park, but I assume he has stayed behind to take part in the Olympics.
    The story about Ryo and Ajax seems have come from out of the blue as it seemed clear that he is likely to be part of AW’s future pland. His progress at Arsenal has followed the usual route for young Arsenal players, some time out on loan followed by a finishing school in a lower table Prem club. So why would there rumours about Ajax chasing him? Didn’t he also trial there and break his leg after trialing with us?

  43. How true this is i dont know but to my mind if you wanted to keep the player you would bring him with the squad – but then again it also falls in line with most of those at the euros staying behind…………..

    http://www.theshortfuse.com/2012/7/21/3174674/robin-van-persie-arsenal-transfer-rumours-asia-tour?

  44. Andy-There was only one club Cesc wanted to go to. Barca didn’t have to pay the “market price”, so to say. With Cesc faking injury( that’s what I believe), Barca pretty much had us by the balls. This situation’s different, many clubs in for the player, we are in a much better position this time.

  45. Here’s where all the money corrupting football comes from:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/21/global-elite-tax-offshore-economy
    Capitalism is theft.
    If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

  46. whats going on with theo then?

    weve turned down a 25mil bid from chelsea?? and hes in the tour squad..

    hes staying then i presume?

  47. There is some logic to the claim that Barca being the only club bidding for Cesc put us in a bad position. But C.Ronaldo/Madrid/Manure were exactly in the same situation and they managed to get top dollar for him. So the logic doesn’t have to hold, if our management had the mind to extract maximum value.

    It would seem that we (as in Arsene) ‘let’ Cesc go for less than he was worth as some sort of favour to the boy.

  48. How times have changed. Frank and Ateeb sound like a couple of bitter doomers. Demaning we sell our souls and pay van persie £250k a week.

    Oh dear

  49. pedantic george

    Ronaldo was not faking injury and refusing to play for United.
    He had no Real DNA

  50. pedantic george

    Its the “going rate”Dexter.

  51. Ronaldo’s obviously twice the player cesc is.

  52. It’s the “going rate” Dex. They earn hundreds of millions for the club, oh and don’t forget the sacrifices too.

  53. Is it George? Oh well then, we should stop being so tight fisted and stump it up and to hell with the consequences.

  54. The poor souls, I forgot about the sacrifices and all the selfish years spent working for free, curing the sick and feeding the poor and needy.

  55. pedantic george | July 22, 2012 at 12:49 pm
    That was going to be my next post.

  56. Meant selfless, but Freudian slip there.

  57. It really does beggar belief that people would parrot terms like ‘its the going rate’ and use it as a stick to beat the club with in the process.

    As if we should simply double the wages of our better players in order to stop them from jumping ship to Oil city, who don’t have to worry about breaking even, never mind make a profit.

    Our players should be well paid and they fucking are, the wage structure is something that the club balls up and they have admitted as much.

    But to be so utterly blinkered and simplistic is just plain daft.

  58. Steww – I don’t mean a bidding war. I mean having a valuation and then just sticking to it. You don’t need a bidding war to decide a price. We hold the players registration, so we can set bit ourselves. We got a bad price for Cesc, I don’t think there is any doubt about that.

  59. pedantic george

    Those City players contribute directly to the huge profits the Club makes.They should expect a share of those profits.
    Sorry ,what? They lose £200 million every year.Oh! Hang on let me have a rethink.I am sure there is a good reason why they deserve their money,and why we should match it.
    This might take me a moment or two.Where is Adam Smith when you need him?

  60. I pointed out to Ateeb that none of the clubs paying the 250/wk are run responsibly and he takes a dig at Arsenal. He does not deal with my point though. Why should Arsenal follow clubs that are bad business models, Ateeb and those who agree?

    It’s all about the trophies, so let’s just say we want a sugar daddy. Sk to spend 250 mil on the squad.

  61. £250K per week is nonsense. That is not the ‘going rate’. You just said it for effect, Dexter. Ateeb described perfectly well what he meant. It is really about having more of a differential within the club. In act far from being a Doomer I suspect his view is more aligned with AWs current strategy than yours and snarky’s.

  62. Ateeb has lost the plot paulN. I don’t think Frank is remotely serious about anything on here TBH, it’s just a bit of fun to him.:)

    There is no argument to ever justify paying such ludicrous wages. maybe in a few years when the average wage for PL player is £500k a week!

  63. PG- Did you consider the sacrifices.

  64. Another thing that annoys me is that Frank could find every excuse to justify RVP but he reads something about the board undermining Wenger and he runs with it. No proof mind you, while we had RVP own statement.

  65. Ethics? Morals? Philosophy.

    Wenger’s belief (part of his philosophy) is he has a duty to make money, er profits, for the owners of the football club. hence I am amazed that suddenly a number of veteran supporters of AFC, who make my tenure pale in comparison, are enraged that the owners of AFC care about making a profit. That they have generations of experience doing this makes them even more committed to their policies in comparison to the fulminations of some on this blog and elsewhere.

    Wenger evidently believes if the competition was on a level playing field rather than with financially doped teams he would be more successful in the EPL, through his coaching and eye for talent.

    As ZimPaul said at the end of yesterday’s thread:

    “Why on earth does Ateeb or anyone else think a ManCity type approach is replicable, or alternatively an approach that says “invest more than your surplus (ie incur debt) for the purpose of over-valuing players and their wages”? The ManCity/PSG model is by definition an exceptional, singular model. The second model has failed everywhere in EPL except ManUnited. Chelsea is somewhere in between, little ManC, and we shall see how that is sustained. And if someone can show me another ManUnited model, anywhere in the world, that would be fascinating.

    “The mistake an angry Ateeb makes, as well as the donald duck naivete of Bill, both extraordinarily stupid comments, is in not comparing Arsenal as it is run now, to Spurs, Liverpool, Newcastle (as examples, but just continue down the EPL ladder, the model is the same, only the level differs) and realising the real accomplishment at Arsenal over this decade and a half; never being out of the top 4 in 15 years.

    “It is idiotic and a lie to say Arsenal are not, over this period, the most successful team in the EPL with the sole exception of United. But what really marks Arsenal is that it has achieved this, and re-built its physical infra-structure, its global brand, and at the same time achieved unsurpassed distinction in its football in the EPL.”

  66. Frank, Ateeb thinks RVP should get the 200+. That is what he said.

  67. pedantic george

    Bollocks,Utter bollocks.

  68. I think the board undermining Arsene is the polar opposite of what is the reality. If you listen to any comment from Wenger is seems that he is 100% behind the boards financial model. He may well understand that it hamstrings him against other clubs, but is committed to it anyway.

  69. pedantic george

    A kick up his ungrateful Jackski is what he should get Paul.

  70. The idea that Wenger is being undermined by the Board over the issue of player wages and transfers simply lacks credibility. Does anybody have a shred of evidence to support the notion that Wenger would support wiping out your surplus to finance wages beyond the value of a player or the value of the team? I would suggest that Wenger believes it is his duty to enhance the market value of individual players and the team as a whole via his management and coaching. In fact he is on record as saying the team must play a certain style if AFC expects the growing support of paying fans in the Emirates and on TV.

  71. pedantic george

    I agree with Shotta

  72. Shotta – Exactly. He buys into it.

  73. Although I feel that AW was overruled in the nasri situation.

  74. This is called ends against the middle. the agents do this to get the best deal for their player. This is all part of the game. Pay or play has always been the way. Let’s see how this all plays out. It’s done all the tuime in the NBA, MLB, and the NFL.

  75. German, and I hate US sports for it. At the end of the day they forget that it is all about the consumer. The more money the players earn the more ticket prices will go up and/or the less stable some teams will be.

  76. Lol, my auto thingy said German instead of geeman. Blow wow!

  77. The other thing that is now beginning to piss me off are those now championing idea of Van Persie being at the vanguard of a struggle for a more hierarchical pay structure.
    More hierarchichical is another way of saying more inequality. This is growing to create future conflicts while it may solve the problem of RVP becoming a multi-millionaire in the shortest possible order.
    This is the contradiction Ateeb has created for himself with his inflamed rhetoric.
    Me personally, but I would like to see more of that surplus plowed into the team not just to fatten the bank accounts certain star players. Anelka anyone?

  78. If you take RvP at his word, this is nothing to do with money at all. He wants to leave as he does not think we will be winning anytime soon and wants to go somewhere which will. Obviously the wages we pay could be given as one of the reasons this is the case. And it could be right.

    He is going to get an amazing pay packet wherever he plays, so his given reason could well be genuine.

  79. pedantic george

    If you take RvP at his word,you are a fucking simpleton

  80. Shotta, I have tried to make the point that City pay more across the board. If you give RVP this amount that is way above the other players, they will want more also. It’s simple, as far as we know Arsenal cannot do what City does so shouldn’t even dare to try.

  81. Absolutely fantastic post Yogi:

    I wage structure that we have now is a mistake. I don’t blame anyone because I think I understand the reasons behind it but time has proven that it was a massive miscalculation. Where there is blame is letting this issue consume the club instead of fixing it. Its clear that we can not rebuild the wage structure quickly without taking a short term loss. Is it really more important for the club to maintain the moral high ground then to fix this problem that is so clearly hurting us. No one is asking for the club to spend itself into administration but we could certainly afford to spend what is needed to get things back on the right track in the short term.

    Arsene’s statement that we can’t bring in new players until we get rid of all the old ones demonstrates the lack of any flexibility in the clubs mindset which is the thing that Ateeb was upset about last night. The idea that not showing a profit for a year or 2 will suddenly send us down the slippery slope of doom is absolutely ludicrous. No one including Ateeb is asking for us to suddenly spend Man City type money because we don’t have to do that. However, we will not melt like the wicked witch of the east if we lose some money for 2 – 3 years while we fix our wage ladder and renegotiate our commercial contracts. The dogmatic lack of flexibility of our club on several levels is doing far more damage then losing money for a couple of years would do.

  82. GA, no one in their right minds could look at the players we have gotten in and believe that they along with RVP don’t give us a chance to win something. We were all excited about the upcoming season until RVP’s statement.

  83. George – Not really. Why is it so outrageous that he wants to go to a team where he thinks he has more chance of winning? He is 28 years old and has won fuck all (FA Cup 05 aside) with us. It could also be purely financial of course, but I don’t think the first scenario is pure fantasy.

    Certainly not as surefire as you make it sound George. You are also a simpleton should you be so narrow minded to to see any other possibility when there is no evidence either way.

    Paul – I agree with that. But that is from a fan point of view. We don’t know what assurances RvP has asked for which seem to have not been met (I am not suggesting that they should have been mind).

  84. this day 6 years ago, we opened the Emirates Stadium with Dennis Bergkamp’s testimonial.

    i watched the game again today. the second half when the legends played…that was the last time i saw Football.

  85. Get Sky mate. It is on all the time. 😉

  86. Bill, ateeb said that RVP is top 3 in the world and should be paid accordingly. That is what the man said to me.

    And why don’t you believe that Arsene is on board with his statement? Why do we automatically assume that it is the board?

    I am not sure why Arsenal should pile up players like City. Again why is good business sense being shunned

  87. I agree with Shotta. No way to prove it but I suspect that if Arsene went to the board and said “we will have to take some short term losses but this needs to be fixed” that they would do as he asks.

  88. pedantic george

    Bill what do you call £200k+pw and the consequences for the rest of the squad?
    Surely every first team regular would want a minimum of £125 to £150 .and the squad players who we say now earn £60k would see this figure (which you say is to much) as derisory.
    Also Citys statement that they can’t bring in new players until they get rid of all the old ones ,does that demonstrates the lack of any flexibility in that clubs mindset .?
    Bill you are really struggling of late.

  89. I hear so much about the wage structure. Can someone tell me precisely what’s wrong with it?

  90. Hasn’t Gazidas said they are in the process of restructuring the pay scale? To me that means less to start with for those breaking into the team than they currently get (making it harder to move them on if they don’t cut it) and more for those established players who the club rely on to get them the results – but still not astronomical wages like those at City. The offer to RVP would seem to point to that, a top wage but not ridiculous stuff like City pay

  91. Mr Bob said this many times and it is true that the simple love of the game has gone. Get us some damn trophies by any means necessary.

    Not only is football sick but the support have bought into to it. Shame!

  92. pedantic george

    Andy,If you take Drogba at his word, he has not gone for the money.Eto as well.
    I have no evidence to disprove their claims.So am I a simpleton for calling bullshit on them?

  93. Paul:

    He should be paid like one of the top 3 – 5 players in the world because thats exactly what he is. We don’t have anyone else like that on the squad. We have to be able to pay a couple of players top wages if we really want to compete. Isn’t that rather clear by now. Thats the idea of a successful wage ladder. You pay your top players top money and you fill in the squad around them. No other individual player on the squad is close to him in value to the club.

  94. George – Who gives a fuck what Drogba and Eto say? It has no bearing at all on this situation. And a noticeable difference between the two players you mention and RvP is medal haul. They have won loads; he has won fuck all.

  95. True, GA, but they seem 2 excellent players. I like what i see.

  96. SAF

    “We can play 18-year-olds because it’s part of our history,” he added.

    “No other clubs can do that. City won’t do it. They definitely won’t play any young players who have come up through their system.”

    He was talking about Powel an 18 year old player they signed from Crewe in… ’em’ 2012.

    Seems he’s never heard of the Arsenal academy either.

  97. Paul – Me too. I think they are great additions.

  98. SAF

    >”We can play 18-year-olds because it\’s part of our history,” he added.

    >”No other clubs can do that. City won\’t do it. They definitely won\’t play any young players who have come up through their system.”

    He was talking about Powel an 18 year old player they signed from Crewe in… ’em’ 2012.

    Seems he\’s never heard of the Arsenal academy either.

  99. pedantic george

    My point stands,Bullshit is bullshit No matter who spouts it.And RVP is full of it.

  100. where did all those ‘\’ come from?

  101. Bill, then ge has to go to a team that is financially doped? That is the point. We are basing the pay scale from a twisted angle and you and Ateeb are asking the club to fall in line with that. Don’t you get that? It CANNOT work for Arsenal.

  102. George:

    I am sorry to disappoint you but this is clearly hurting our club. We each have our priorities of where we want our club to go. Athough I don’t agree with your ideas, I have no problem with you believing whatever you want. However, there are certainly legitimate arguments on both sides of the fence.

    The idea that paying one player a lot of money will somehow cause an inexorable trickle down effect and everyone on the squad will want RVP wages and eventually lead us to our doom is theoretical at best, not supportable by anything but conjecture and IMO not reality. Its crystal clear that the current status quo is hurting the club.

  103. pedantic george

    Andy He should sign for Celtic if he want medals.Or Porto.I wonder if he will?

  104. It seesm we are on the trail of Santi Carzola from Malaga.
    I found this funny entry on wiki – On the 22 July 2012 reports came out of Spain that Cazorla was on his way to Arsenal to help fill the void the Cocky Judas (Robin Van Persie) will leave. – so its a done deal!! The internets says so

  105. No question mark after “financially doped”.

  106. pedantic george

    Bill if you dont think that the wage of one player is used are the measuring stick by the other players ,then I give up.
    Have it your way.

  107. More importantly, I am 41 today.

  108. Happy birthday. It’ll be a triumph of hope over expectation if my kids live that long

  109. Is that the ‘kids’ on here YW?

  110. Happy Birthday Paul

  111. happy birthday, Paul.

  112. Thanks!

    I’m in Austin, Texas for the weekend. Some beautiful hill country in these here parts.

  113. Paying for it all with my 250.00 per week, mind you.

  114. So what do we think RVP is suggesting, that by paying him the ‘going rate’ we demonstrate our willingness to compete for trophies? If we have really offered him £130,000 plus a £5m signing up fee haven’t we demonstrated a willingness to compete? With the signings we have already made this summer I would have thought we have sent the right message already and I don’t think AW has finished shopping yet. I look at players like Ox, Wilshere, Ryo and Jenkinson and feel that we have some real future stars in the squad, these are the players we have to lock into contracts. The players we have signed over the last two summers (rushed or not) have also provided some of the experience we have been missing in the squad. The final step is to get the overhang of ‘dross’ moved out.
    RVP’s decision seems to me to be more about him getting his one last big contract than about the future of Arsenal.

  115. Harry Flowers

    “Bill, ateeb said that RVP is top 3 in the world and should be paid accordingly. That is what the man said to me.”

    He probably is y’know. Or thereabouts. A man who, if he stays fit (and that’s the big if, and one which may affect his price tag in the end), can bag you an astonishing amount of goals per season. And that’s priceless in football. So yeah Persie big bollocks and his charming “representatives” appear to hold most of the bargaining chips as regards the “going rate”. And yes he’s worth that going rate. Should Arsenal attempt this? in my opinion no. Eventually you have to draw a line in the sand. However if he were to get the money and stays next season and we win the league, there will be precious few complaining.

    Does he “deserve” it? well that’s a whole other debate. Brings us back to the ethics and morals malarky. I mean I personally vehemently agree with Consolsbob that football should not be exempt from the application of morals. Then again I try and apply those values to everything. Trouble is those values seem awfully quaint these days. It’s like pissing in the wind.

    Birthday greetings Paul 🙂

  116. So if we pay one player the top wage where does it stop? Would Fabregas have been classed as that top player last summer? Should we have paid him the money to stay (and would he have taken it)? So what should we have paid Nasri to get him to stay? Adebayor scored 30 goals for us in the season before his last, so should he have had the top wage?

  117. I couldn’t possibly comment, Dups

  118. Bill – Your propositions do not stand up to scrutiny.

    “The idea that paying one player a lot of money will somehow cause an inexorable trickle down effect and everyone on the squad will want RVP wages and eventually lead us to our doom is theoretical at best, not supportable by anything but conjecture and IMO not reality.”

    Really! So wage inflation, fueled most recently by Man City and Chelsea’s profligacy is mere conjecture. Go ask the managers of lower tier EPL and under clubs who cannot match the wage demands of the cast offs from these clubs while losing money hand over fist with what they already have.

    “Its crystal clear that the current status quo is hurting the club.”
    Really! By coming 3rd last year, one place above 2010. and standing no. 10 among most valuable sports franchise in the world. Only Man Utd among English clubs is better. Yes, they are top of the pile but groaning under their debt burden. The owners I believe have a much broader measure of success than you do.

    Too often your thinking seems blinded by the protectionism rampant America where franchises are protected from their irresponsible spending and monopolistic practices either by an act of congress or supported by cities and States with sweet tax deals and exemptions. Sorry Bill but if Arsenal go bankrupt the City of London is hardly likely to bail them out, not if the many othe Loondon clubs have a say in it.

  119. when we talk about how much players are on ppl always say who cares what they get paid, we shouldnt be privvy to this information..

    so why the fuck do we care whether we pay someone 200k a week..??

    for the record, i think we could easily do it if we wanted to..
    the problem is we dont want to upset the other 74 players we have on our books so we do our bit to save the rainforest and create word peace by giving everyone the same wage..

    it creates problems, problems like nobody wanting the shit players and everyone being able to afford the good ones..
    every single one of our players could earn more at liverpool, not just city or chelsea or utd..

    but ppl overlook that becuase they dont see anything wrong with whats happening and they think its all man citys fault..

    it will be funny as fuck if rvp is the one whos sold and we end up having to keep bendnter, chamakh and arshavin..thing is..if we didnt have these three we’d have room for a 200k player..

    we could afford two at least with all the wages we pay players who dont even fucking play, and when they do, theyre shit..

    so why should we care about the wages?

    we didnt care when we were paying big sol 120k a week, we dint complain when we were paying henry/vieira/pires 100k + a week..and that was in a 38,000 seater nearly a decade ago..

    but we care now? becuase its morally wrong.??

    it wasnt morally wrong 10 years ago when we were paying players more than we could afford to keep up with UTD and we had to move stadiums to stop us from going bust…

  120. Thanks Harry!

    I only wish the going rate was not skewed.

    Shotta, I doubt I have even seen a view point as comprehensively mashed up as what you just did to Bills. Damn! Tek it easy wid no mi yute!

  121. JJ, so what, the team saw that it was not sustainable and wanted to do things right. What is wrong with that. I don’t know if what you say is fully true, at the same time.

  122. pedantic george

    No JJ because 10 years ago we had real world class players.But in those days it was the first team and not a squad game.
    And JJ ,I will state that we do not have one single “shit” player on our books.
    We were also living within our means 10 years ago.Just as we are now.You know spending our own money.
    Your notion that you can just give one player the money you dont give to a dix=scarded “shit” player is so simplistic it betrays you total lack of understanding of ,well Just about anything .I suppose .It is stupid on a good day.

  123. For me, it is about business sense. Morals and big money don’t go to well. Never has and never will.

  124. George – “My point stands,Bullshit is bullshit No matter who spouts it

    Heh, the most ironic post of the day I would wager.

  125. Greetings, Paul-N!

  126. “On the other hand he might just be the mercenary cunt he has appeared to be from the moment he released his pathetic statement.”

    He was a mercenary cunts much sooner than that. Maybe the minute he forsook Feyenoord for us. You just didn’t realize it. He’d have re-signed loooong before that statement if he wasn’t a mercenary cunt. Successful mercenary cunts will kiss the current badge that feeds them.

  127. pedantic george

    Andy.
    I would not laugh to hard when you actually said this “If you take RvP at his word, this is nothing to do with money at all.”
    I have a bridge for sale btw ,are you interested?

  128. Blimey,. Imagine shotta being in a position to accuse someone else of using ‘fiery rhetoric’!

    Go for it.shotta.

    Happy Birthday, paul.

  129. George – If we had won plenty over the past 5 or 6 years, your point would have a lot more weight behind it. It is equally likely that he wants to leave to win some medals as it is he is going 100% for the cash. And I am not saying that is nothing to do with money; I am saying that his reasons for wanting to leave could be genuine. That fact that you dismiss it despite no evidence either way just makes you blinkered.

    Saying “why doesn’t he go to Celtic” is just a childish response. Or, really really stupid. And I don’t think you are that.

  130. “Vela has just been sold – for about 3 m euros. The others will go too. We won’t have to pay out their contracts..”

    This is what I was talking about yesterday. 3m seems like a very small price for an established international who is still young with potential. Last year he scored 12 goals and had 8 assists on a poor club in one of the world’s top leagues . If rumours are true we’d have to pay more than twice that amount for an unproven Niang.
    If we are going to rid ourselves of the contracts of the surplus squad members then we can’t expect to get much in the way of transfer fees.

  131. To me I don’t see how buying out their contracts is a better option than selling them for peanuts.

  132. philmar – it seems its 3-4 mil but with the usual sell on fee clause attached – i read somewhere that’s what was holding the whole show up

    And supposedly its 1.4 mil up front for Niang with more to come at later stages – the usual after so many club appearances etc.

  133. Sell them for peanuts but make sure we have a good sell on clause.

  134. pedantic george

    But Andy I never said it was 100% for cash .It was you that wanted to accept it was 100% not about cash.Which is what “nothing to do with” means.

  135. Paul-N
    Happiest of days!

  136. Maybe it isn’t.

  137. I’m not sure I even want to trawl through and find out what we’re arguing about today. I bet it’s conjecture about speculation.
    Happy birthday Paul.

  138. “It’s the “going rate” Dex. They earn hundreds of millions for the club, oh and don’t forget the sacrifices too.”

    Of course they do. Are you suggesting people tune in to the games to watch the groundskeeper’s grass cutting design or people just want to read the advertizing hoarding. If so then buy a lawnmower and see if Sky gives you a big tv contract.

  139. Thanks, friends.

  140. Steww – Yup, that sounds about right.

  141. Thanks DeiseGooner. The 6 m figure I alluded to was from the link Yogi provided above. It’s probably 6 m after all installments.

  142. pedantic george

    No Philmar,we are suggesting that clubs paying the big bucks are losing money ,So the stars are contributing to a loss.not a profit.

  143. I searched for antonyms for ‘conjecture’ and I found: fact, proof, reality, truth
    Says it all really.

  144. pedantic george

    When is enough enough?
    What do people need before their greed is satisfied.?
    What price dignity and honour?

  145. “No Philmar,we are suggesting that clubs paying the big bucks are losing money ,So the stars are contributing to a loss.not a profit.”

    Those clubs don’t care about generating a profit. So they offer obscene wages to people that are deemed to be amongst the best in the world at specialized skill. Seems to me it is the owners that are culpable. Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?

  146. “When is enough enough?”

    You can only answer that for yourself. I don’t care how much my football players are paid. I’ll watch their skill even if they are ‘overpaid’. If you think the players ‘greedy’ because they are offered obscenely large pieces of pie from an even larger and growing pie then perhaps it is time to tune out. If enough tune out TV ratings and therefore revenues and sponsorship money will dwindle.
    You’ll have to decide for yourself if you can stomach watching millionaires kick a ball around.
    There’s always tennis..oh. Then there’s always movies….oh. Then there’s always TV…oh. There’s always music…oh.

    There’s always Viagra. OOOOOOOHH

  147. pedantic george

    Because he is asking to be paid more than his worth.
    If you were to ask your employer to pay you more than the business makes.You would be considered greedy ,Would you not?
    And asking clubs that do have to care about making a profit(or at least not losing money)for wages equal to players at the “don’t care”clubs is also greedy.No?

  148. George – How much is he asking for? I didn’t realise it was in the public domain.

  149. Szchezy has been tal;king up Steve Bould’s work with the defence. Good to hear.

  150. C’mon george, sahil et al. Cheer up. You’ll get over it. I know you thought Robin was different than the rest. He isn’t rejecting you, or me or the club. He’s just moving on either for mo’money, some trophies or maybe both.
    Just forget about him. He could have been a legend but he wants something else. What RvP wants isn’t what you or I hoped he’d want but let him live his life. There’s other players out there that Wenger can replace him with and make us fall in love with all over again.
    I don’t feel or see the need to be consumed with hate or moral indignation to move on from this.
    Be positive. It’s not outside the realm of possibilities that RvP could have signed and then spent the next 4 years in sick bay. The lad had one big career year when HE needed it the most, last year. Who is too say that under a new contract he could replicate last year rather than the 6 years that proceeded it?
    Good bye Robin we’ll find another mercenary to love instead.

  151. Happy Birthday, Paul! I’ve sincerely enjoyed your posts over those last several seasons and I hope everything will go well for you in the future.

  152. Also, I have more respect for the Sp*rs monkey than I have for Robin. The Sp*rs monkey has had top clubs sniffing his arse for the past several years, he just had to choose and pick, but he still ended up signing for another year with Sp*rs, despite being forced to play on Thursdays and surely earning half of what he could make anywhere else. He will eventually go — unless Sp*rs actually win something — but he is showing far more loyalty than Robin does when he is in a situation where he wouldn’t need to.

  153. “If you were to ask your employer to pay you more than the business makes.You would be considered greedy ,Would you not?”

    I don’t know if I am a good example to compare with RvP because I am not amongst the world’s top 3 pension administrators (that’s my field). And I don’t know if I would be greedy if I noticed there were similar pension plans paying as much as I was asking for.

  154. “Those clubs don’t care about generating a profit. So they offer obscene wages to people that are deemed to be amongst the best in the world at specialized skill. Seems to me it is the owners that are culpable. Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?”

    So from being deserving due to their skill set, sacrifices and what not, now it’s the owners fault. Mind you we have been saying that all along that some rich douchebags are screwing football’s landscape.

    Also big earning movie stars usually leave their producers with a profit through their films, footballers however……oh, music stars earn a profit for their producers too, footballers however……..oh.

    Your point yesterday was that footballers earn the clubs so many millions that they deserve these wages when in fact most these clubs run into yearly losses ranging anywhere between a few million to 200 million.

  155. Evil – don’t forget Bale is much younger than RvP and in a different stage in his career.

  156. George:

    “Bill what do you call £200k+pw and the consequences for the rest of the squad?
    Surely every first team regular would want a minimum of £125 to £150 .and the squad players who we say now earn £60k would see this figure (which you say is to much) as derisory.”

    “Bill if you dont think that the wage of one player is used are the measuring stick by the other players ,then I give up.”

    What our club pays individual players may have a minimal effect but by far the biggest factor that drives what we have to pay for players is their market value. Do you honestly believe that we were able to re-sign TV5 because he was willing to take a lower wage because we cap the top wages of our club? or because he just wants to help the club? No chance!! He may give us a small home team discount but he knows what he is worth and AFC is willing to pay him in that neighborhood. How much we are willing to pay RVP has little effect on what we have to pay to keep TV5 or Kos. We can still offer the same amount to Alex Song that we would no matter how much we pay RVP and if Alex does not like that then tough.

    If you really think that having a flat wage ladder will keep the rest of the players happy and keep squad harmony and somehow motivate players to work harder and have an all for one attitude then you must be following a different club then I have for the last few years. .

  157. philmar | July 22, 2012 at 4:54 pm – Now this I agree with.

    My only problem yesterday was about the whole “sacrifices” thingy.
    It’s the owners fault, I agree but please footballers don’t earn their clubs so much to deserve these wages.
    The owners are offering them, they accept it, fine but please don’t say they earn their clubs that much money because they don’t.

  158. @philmar
    I know that, but he would’ve had every reason in the world to leave after this season. No CL football, manager leaving, Modric openly for sale, Adebayor not coming back. But he is still showing some loyalty. Of course, by only signing a one year extension he is keeping his options. But it is signaling a willigness on his part that if Sp*rs continue to improve, he will stay with them for the long haul. In the end it’s far more believable that Bale will go for sporting reasons than it is with Robin.

  159. If we are in agreement that it is the financial dopers operating at a loss that are ruining the game why are you blaming the players?

    Who is it that creates the industry’s wealth – the billions of dollars of TV contracts, advertisement/sponsorship deals and gate receipts? Do people pay over 100 pounds togo to the Emirates to sample the pies, marvel at the grass, critique the uniforms, read advertising hoardings or to watch the players?

    Answer the question. Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?

  160. “The owners are offering them, they accept it, fine but please don’t say they earn their clubs that much money because they don’t.”

    I’m talking about football in general – the whole enterprise – all the leagues – all the teams and all the billions of pounds generated. Not just the 3 or 4 financial dopers.

  161. Is it still your birthday Paul? happy birthday.

  162. Philmar – Very true. I would wager that most people would change employers if they were offered that their would would be nearly doubled.

    All that said, we still don’t know if wages on offer is the main reason for all of this (all apart from George of course, as he seems to know what RvP was offered)

  163. wage = would.

  164. “Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?”
    I don’t know maybe because he is openly criticizing a club, a manager that stood with him when he was in jail for a rape accusation, all those years the clubs paying his medical fees, all that. Call me a person with crazy morals, but that sounds like greed to me. Then again maybe it’s just me.

    Question- You said they deserve such wages because they earn the clubs profits, so should get a part of it. What profit I ask, most of the clubs show early losses.

  165. pedantic george

    Andy. before you try and be a clever dick.the “HE” I am referring to is a fictitious player who plays for any club .Not RVP .So an apology will be accepted.
    So that my fictitious players wage demands at not in the public domain is somewhat to be expected

  166. George – Come off it George, it is pretty clear that you are saying that RvP has been offered a wage and he thinks it is not enough so he is going elsewhere for more cash.

    We were talking about RvP at the time. About how he is/is not moving due to cash issues.

  167. pedantic george

    “All that said, we still don’t know if wages on offer is the main reason for all of this (all apart from George of course, as he seems to know what RvP was offered)”
    See above .That is two apologies you owe me Andy.
    Not to good at this ,are you?

  168. Argh! The RvP saga continues…

    Now am tired of hearing these words, “the going rate”. So ultimately, Mancity decide the going rate for top players.

    How on earth does anyone expects The Arsenal to compete against the funds of a sovereign nation?

    No qualms with RvP since we no longer match his ambitions…I just detest the way he presented everything after a semblance of proper transfer activity from AW with the acquisition of LP and OG.
    I don’t care what happens to RvP, I wish him neither evil nor good…he should just leave and I hope we make a load of cash on him.

    Happy birthday Paul N..many more years.

  169. Not so good at what?

    If you want to be pedantic (as your name suggests), that is fine. But it just makes you look a bit daft to be honest. I don’t come on here to “point score” against other posters and their posts, so don’t feel the need to dissect people’s posts when having a discussion.

    If you are waiting for an apology from me for making a comment on one of your posts when it was quite clear what you were implying (now denying by twisting words), you will be waiting for quite a while I am afraid.

  170. Consolbob @ 3:45pm
    “Blimey,. Imagine shotta being in a position to accuse someone else of using ‘fiery rhetoric’!
    – Age is telling dear Bob.

    On the matter of age, happy birthday PaulN!

    I wonder how many of us work for businesses that make money or not. Does everybody on this blog work for the government?

    I once worked for an American entrepreneur who made it clear he was building the business to eventually sell on. The years we stopped making money did more for my blood pressure than my genes.

    No wonder Bill’s “voodoo” economics reminds of the irresponsibility of those whose irresponsibility nearly cost me and my colleagues their livelihood.

  171. pedantic george

    No Andy you are wrong I know exactly what I meant.
    If you look back I was answering this particular question Philmar asked in his previous post “Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?”
    That would be a general question and he got a general answer .Fuck all do do with RVP and his particular demands.Which as you say are completely unknown.

  172. Paul – Have a good birthday mate.

  173. Heh, you don’t think the conversation was centering on RvP.

    Of course not.

  174. pedantic george

    So ok compound your mistake .Andy.
    I have proven you wrong and you are not prepared to admit it .Fair enough,But it is nothing to do with scoring points off you or anyone else.

  175. OK.

    All you have proven is that you are indeed in order to try and “win” your argument.

  176. “Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?”

    Top players are paid 300-500 times the average wage, and still whine about their ‘short careers’. What would it take for you to acknowledge some players’ greed? RVP asking for £500k per week. Would that be greedy?

  177. pedantic george

    Andy.Its simple .You tried to be a clever cunt by saying I seemed to know what RVP;s wage demands were .I had not said that .I have shown that ,It is there in black and white.
    You are wrong and were wrong.Thats that.

  178. greed-An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:
    Doesn’t apply to footballers apparently.

  179. Wage inflation due to players asking for parity is a myth. There is disparity in wages in all the other ‘proper’ tops teams. Bayern for instance has a couple of stars who’s I imagine earn top dollar, yet their wage bill is not higher than ours.

    Anyway I see 2 arguments here, one is whether its possible to lift our wage ceiling (to something closer to ‘market’ value) by reorganising our flat wage structure. 2nd is whether its right/wrong for the owners to invest more money in the team (via loans, rights issue, etc) in order to allow us compete better than we are currently able to.

    My take is that is a sensible combination of both approaches is possible without unduly risking our values or long term sustainability.

  180. Asking your employers to change their wage structure to pay you even more extravagantly than you already are, thereby making them uneconomic and thus risking the livelihoods of hundreds of other employees. Is that greedy?

  181. @george
    snarky cunt who uses the “I” in every post. Fuck off, monkey.

  182. And fuck you too OMPaz, thanks for your valuable contribution to the debate.

  183. George – Ah, whatever mate. I can’t be arsed with you when you are in one of these moods. It was blatantly obvious that the discussion was about RvP.

  184. pedantic george

    Wow,Oscar Wilde has changed his user name to OMPaz.

  185. Nice…. thought to redress the balance…. God bless you all…. Frank’s a shithead too….

  186. FFS – Is that what is happening at Arsenal with RvP? Has George told you what RvP’s demands are in order for you to come to that conclusion?

  187. pedantic george

    Andy ,you got it wrong.I proved it to you .And now you are accusing me of lying.As you say “whatever”

  188. “Why is it the player that is greedy when he is offered a lot of money by a spendthrift tycoon?”
    I don’t know maybe because he is openly criticizing a club, a manager that stood with him when he was in jail for a rape accusation, all those years the clubs paying his medical fees, all that. Call me a person with crazy morals, but that sounds like greed to me. Then again maybe it’s just me. ” – ahil

    So our talk yesterday was about players in general and my question wasn’t about RvP specifically. We aren’t on the same page and arguing about 2 different things. Cheers.

    “Question- You said they deserve such wages because they earn the clubs profits, so should get a part of it. What profit I ask, most of the clubs show early losses.” – Sahil

    Did I say ‘profits”? Don’t think I did. If so, then I should have said ‘revenue’. There is a shitload of money entering football generated by the players’ skill and if some clubs are not earning a profit it is because they are poorly run.

  189. George, you do come across as rather over-agressive over a non-issue. There was no need to call Andy a simpleton. Its something Frank would do.

  190. OMPaz

    It’s almost 6 o’clock your carers will be along to take you back to the asylum soon.

  191. Henristic

    If the offer we were rumoured to be making to RVP is true then haven’t we already tried to lift our wage ceiling for a special player? Should we be trying to pay £250k a week, or is the offer of £160k enough? Would City just raise the bar higher if clubs like Arsenal tried to match the top end salaries to keep their special players?

  192. Nice debate today, shame it’s starting to descended into childish behaviour.

  193. Andy – if you look at my posts you’ll find I’ve merely hypothesised in regard to RVP. Like everybody else is doing. George has told me but that’s by the by.

  194. pedantic george

    FFS was that a general observation as well?
    Seems Andy is obsessed with RVP.

  195. “Top players are paid 300-500 times the average wage, and still whine about their ‘short careers’. What would it take for you to acknowledge some players’ greed? RVP asking for £500k per week. Would that be greedy?”

    So we are going to compare football players who are the BEST in the whole world at their craft with the average wage? Sorry I am not interested in a talk when the deck is stacked like that.

    A player is greedy when he demands a wage that the market will not match.

  196. Wavey – spot on

  197. ” greed-An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:
    Doesn’t apply to footballers apparently. ”
    Sure it does, see above.

  198. pedantic george

    The Market should not be considered the Arab Nations though.Rather football clubs with a finite budget Philmar

  199. @philmar
    But a lot of that money (wealthy owners aside) is generated primarily through one source: the fans. Football clubs get all those lucrative sponsorship deals because companies want to appeal to the hundreds of millions of football supporters, same goes for TV deals and then obviously match day income. If football hadn’t become this massive thing, a guy like RVP would have to work a proper day time job. However, some players do not seem to think that the money generated by and because of football supporters is still not enough for them.

  200. A player is greedy when he demands a wage that the market will not match.

    Then the notion of greed itself is redundant. Loan sharks not greedy shocker.

  201. Nobody has bitten, yet. Let me try again:
    Any of you guys (men and women) work for a profit-driven business or not?
    Or do you work for government or non-profit?
    Does that influence your opinion on the policies pursued by the owners of AFC?
    Just wondering.

    PS: Steww – I see you have been dodging the debate? You can run but you can’t hide. 🙂

  202. pedantic george

    Again Henristic I was suggesting that anyone who takes RVP at his word is a simpleton.I did not call Andy a simpleton.Just to be sure.Here is the post
    “pedantic george | July 22, 2012 at 1:48 pm
    If you take RvP at his word,you are a fucking simpleton”

    I see no reference to Andy specifically .Do you?

  203. Shotta – I work for a non-profit organisation. And if somebody offered to double my wage my current employer would not see me for dust 😉

  204. Wavey,
    I don’t know what RvP is demanding so can’t answer your question. I was making a general point about our lack of an ‘industry standard’ wage disparity.

    Personally I don’t think its so much about the money for RvP. I’m not sure he’ll stay even if we somehow match City’s offer for him, whatever that is. The man wants to win shiny things, and he’ll go where he thinks he has a better chance of doing that, imo.

  205. “Now am tired of hearing these words, “the going rate”. So ultimately, Mancity decide the going rate for top players.”
    The market does. Man City sets the top end of the market. We buy below that end and sometimes lose our players to the top end.

    “How on earth does anyone expects The Arsenal to compete against the funds of a sovereign nation?”
    We can but it is an unfair unlevel playing field. But then again how could Stoke or Norwich compete with us? Few top players would want to live there over London. Their fans base in smaller. Did you ever complain we had an unfair advantage over them?

    “I don’t care what happens to RvP, I wish him neither evil nor good…he should just leave and I hope we make a load of cash on him. ”
    Agreed. He’s no longer committed and can be replaced.

  206. Shotta

    I work for a broking firm. The norm within my industry over the last few years is to expect bonuses even when you’re not making a profit and if those bonuses are not forthcoming the tendency is to look elsewhere. In the company I work for the bonus pool is based on a share of profits between company and staff. If we’re not making a profit we are not getting a bonus.

  207. “The Market should not be considered the Arab Nations though.Rather football clubs with a finite budget Philmar”

    And summers shouldn’t be spent indoors because it rains too much.
    But it does.

  208. Henristic – “Personally I don’t think its so much about the money for RvP. I’m not sure he’ll stay even if we somehow match City’s offer for him, whatever that is. The man wants to win shiny things, and he’ll go where he thinks he has a better chance of doing that, imo.”

    They are my thoughts also. Which makes us simpletons I understand, but there you go. Even if it was 100% about the cash, there is part of me that understand that as well.

  209. Ok George. Not gonna argue with you in this mood. I think I’ve made my point anyways.

  210. Henristic
    I’m just using RVP as the most obvious example, I just wonder if City will just offer more money if clubs try to fight off their attacks by increasing the salaries they pay their top players.

  211. There should be a smiley in that last post George. 🙂

  212. C’mon guys. You don’t think Arsenal hasn’t enjoyed an unfair competitive advantage in the past because of it’s location in a multicultural megalopolis? It has paid wages higher than most of English football.

  213. Philmar- Most of the clubs don’t earn a profit, not some. Ours is one of the very few that does.
    Your definition of greed differs from mine.

  214. I’m in my 3rd career change and ending it soon. Each change left an indelible mark on my health and financial situation (until resolved).

    Some of these players (imo) are not prepared for anything after their playing days.

    I would expect that some key football players look at the big payday to take pressure off the eventual, especially if they have a family. Even if they planned an outside career, there is no firm timeline in going without a paycheck.

    We are not talking about a few thousand dollars a month……but a few millions a year.

    I trust Arsene to construct a team that is successful in the club’s budget.

  215. Wavey,
    In any particular bidding war where money is the deciding factor, City will always win. But, they can’t buy every good player, and not all players are for sale.
    Heck, none of the top 3-5 players in the world plays for them, and that will probably not change. Its unlikely Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta etc will be joining them soon even though they clearly could earn more and still win stuff by doing so.

  216. Philmar- Our wages were paid by our money, not of a billionare or a nation.

  217. Very good points Philmar.

  218. “If football hadn’t become this massive thing, a guy like RVP would have to work a proper day time job. ”

    Correct. And if this internets thing here hadn’t caught on then many of today’s millionaire high tech CEOs would be doing something else.They might be CEOs of other industries. And RvP might be earning millions as a tennis player.

  219. pedantic george

    Henristic .Do you think it has “nothing”to do with money.
    Because that is what RVP is saying and Andy is swallowing.
    NOTHING???? Really????

  220. George – If you look at what i said at the very start of this you will see that I said it was equally as possible. I just is was unreasonable just to rule out the reason Rvp. It could well be 100% about money (which i have also said today).

  221. You out of your mood yet george?? i wont hang around if you still are.

  222. pedantic george

    Philmar .It seems your ideals,ethics and standards differ to some of the rest of us.
    That is fine.But I would rather not just accept the American way.As it seems that is more “how it is” over the pond.
    That said ,some of the very highest standards are set here by or Colonial cousins. So I guess I am none the wiser.

  223. Is it true that Fizman injected some cash (50m) into the club in the 90’s? Yogi?

  224. @philmar
    Apples and pears since the web tech industry usually offers something tangible(figuratively speaking!) as opposed to what a football player offers.

  225. I would suggest that we all mark this day in our calenders. Then we know that in approximately 28 days time George will again be snarky and argumentative, so we can all give him a wide birth for 5 or 6 days. 😉

  226. pedantic george

    Andy.

    pedantic george | July 22, 2012 at 1:48 pm
    If you take RvP at his word,you are a fucking simpleton

    His word was that it had “NOTHING”to do with money.
    I have not changed my position .You seem to have.

  227. ” Philmar- Most of the clubs don’t earn a profit, not some. Ours is one of the very few that does.
    Your definition of greed differs from mine. ‘

    Of course – yours is borne of the high moralistic road. I don’t consider someone greedy when they take something that is willingly offered to them. Players earn wages offered willingly to them by owners.
    You can argue the wages are out of proportion to what the market can support but that is due to the stupidity of the owners offering wages they can’t sustain.
    Arsenal can’t compete with Man Shitty wages. We’d be stupid to try. Problem is too many clubs like Sunderland offer wages they can’t sustain. That doesn’t make the Sunderland players greedy just because they accepted unsustainable wage offers.

  228. Henristic- Messi, ronaldo, iniesta are highly unlikely to earn more anywhere else than where they are at the moment. As of May 2012 both barca and madrid had a higher wage bill than city.

  229. Sahil, yes we used our revenue to pay wages of our players before we moved to Ashburton Grove. But we were bank rolled by Diamond Dealer Danny. He put his money into transfer fees for us to get players.

  230. “”@philmar
    Apples and pears since the web tech industry usually offers something tangible(figuratively speaking!) as opposed to what a football player offers.””

    Not sure what your point is. People spending money on football get nothing tangible in return? Are those memories not real? the shirts, scarves all figments of our imagination? the pies don’t really make us fat?

  231. George,
    I can’t say for sure, but I think our inability to win trophies is the bigger concern for RvP than the paycheck. Its not inconcievable that wages are not the overiding factor for a player. Its widely reported that Cesc took a paycut leaving us, and Arteta did the same coming to us.

    Like I said, I think RvP would still leave even if we somehow matched City, Juve, or Manures’s offer.

  232. yeah like for nasri henristic but….if we offered nasri the same wage as shitty do you reckon he would’nt of stayed? i’m convinced if we offer rvp £250,000 or to match shitty he would do a rooney and sign up….the greedy little bastad.

  233. pedantic george

    Well Henristic you are free to have that opinion.I don’t share it.
    Is accept he would like to win stuff.I just think to move to a club where they but success and leave us high and dry is poor stuff

  234. Sahil,
    You missed my point, unless you think City couldn’t match and exceed their current salaries.

  235. George – No I haven’t. I said if you take him at face value, what he is saying is could be true. I have also said repeatedly that it could be about money. But the reasons he has given are could be true also. My initial point was that you would not have to be a simpleton to go with his story as you stated. That is because what he is saying holds some merit.

    My opinion is that he wants to leave to win medals. His discussion with AW and IG obviously has not convinced him we will be doing that anytime soon (I hope he is wrong in that). Given his current status in world football any move is more than likely going to see him earn more money than he does with us. Even more so if he runs his contract down.

    This has been my opinion since his statement and has not changed once (yet). If more information is released maybe I will; but as yet I have not.

  236. George,
    What do you disagree with exactly? Because nothing I’ve said contradicts this your statement:

    “Is accept he would like to win stuff.I just think to
    move to a club where they but success and leave
    us high and dry is poor stuff”

    Its a sentiment I share, although not to the same levels as you do.

  237. the reason rvp wants to leave means shit anyway…he owes the club and as a man he has no morals, principals or conscience…he is fukin us over and for that reason…he is a cunt.

  238. what are we going to do with his personalised orange treatment tabel now???

  239. table.

  240. Arteta took a paycut for a chance to compete at a higher level, and possible win something. Some Everton fans probably call him a cunt for leaving them high and dry.
    Will the fact that we are a bastion of financial sustainability (rather than a billionairres plaything) make a difference to them?
    Would they feel better if he didn’t take a paycut?

  241. Hey, did i miss the partei? Happy birthday Paul-N, wish you many more years.

    Now to the gritty stuff, grrrr!
    ‘Seems to me it is the owners that are culpable’ – Exactly man, if these billionaire owners weren’t so willing at flashing their legs in public there would be more ‘loyal’ players – Note, Rvp does not fall into that category of players, the Rat is a new breed of cunts and with Nasri by his side i call them the Dynamic duo, half Rats, half cunts.

    Ah, ‘Who needs Batman when you’ve got Robin’, if only Robin was mauled by a group of angry chiwawas while being dragged while covered in horseshit from the Emirates to Mexico – ah come to think of it, i had that dream yesterday (felt like a baby this morning), i know, i know, it doesn’t get much better than that.

    As people in ze movies say, the show must go on, if we as Arsenal fans think we have it tough i say take a step back and think of the children, jeez! wrong motivational speech – What i meant to say is imaging how fans of West brom, Everton, Fulham feel, most of these clubs below us are always fighting against relegation or ‘trapped’ in midtable mediocrity for the forseable future, they have no ambition of playing Ucl football or fighting for the league just Survival or even the Ajax fans, how do you think they feel? Losing world class players every summer since 1995 *cough* Arsenal *cough*, Vertonghen this summer, Vermaelean before, Ericksen next, (i think i need a glass of water) so my point is we should be more grateful of what we have and stop moaning(sorry, bitching) so much about our ‘problems’, when in fact 90% of clubs would kill to be having our ‘problems’ and the remaining 10% are financially doped, so can we tone down the moaning a notch or two, thanks in advance.

  242. yeah but arteta didnt pick up 4 years of wages sitting at home with his leg on a pouffe eating lumps of edam playing championship manager.

  243. I just don’t feel as strongly about this RvP issue as some clearly do.
    Players wanting to leave/stay is the nature of this football business, and I’m pretty much inured to it all now.

    I’m not particularly concerned about billionaires corrupting the game either. Money has been influencing football and everything else for decades. In fact football is the least of my worries in that context.

    All I want from Arsenal is to see the players/manager doing their best, and hopefully be entertained. City has got fuck all to do with that.

  244. Thanks Wavey (and Andy):

    Although employees in my company are not exactly bonus-driven as in the brokering business but we share something in common here:
    ” If we’re not making a profit we are not getting a bonus.”
    Maybe that is why both we have such an aversion to businesses that can’t generate a profit even in the best of times.
    How that profit is shared is another question.

  245. “Philmar .It seems your ideals,ethics and standards differ to some of the rest of us.”

    I don’t know if that is the point. I see players like I see entertainers. They earn obscene wages. Tom Cruise is a twat but I don’t begrudge him the 20 million he earns each movie. Some of his movies may lose the producers money but did that make him greedy for accepting that fee? ANY actor could live a good life earning $100,000 a movie so is anything more GREED or is is the market value. Movies generate a crapload of money like football does, people pay to sit down and eat/drink to watch it. Then there is cross market advertising and licensing deals, DVD sales ect.

    Actors and directors used to be employees of single studios and worked exclusively for them. That evolved in to the star system where actors were free to choose their own movie and directors and they became richly rewarded. Some call the actors greedy because they earn an obscene wage.
    The world is forever evolving, so is football. I don’t think the changes that are unpalatable to us all are due to players’ greed. It’s the actions of a few owners that don’t have to run a sustainable viable business and the foolhardy ones that can’t adapt/innovate and who offer players contracts their business can’t sustain.
    Players are just accepting whats being offered to them.
    The Sunderlands need to do what Arsenal does and buy and develop youngsters. Even Manure have adapted to this new business climate and now focus on player development. Man Shitty and Chavs can’t own all the good players. Let them assemble a squad of rich egos. A lot of good it did Chavs. It was their downfall as the egos stopped playing for their new coach. Man Shitty only won because Manure imploded at the end of last season. They can have the narcissistic Balotelli but he’s going to cost them a few games each year due to idiotic red and yellow cards.

    Look I feel your pain. I don’t like losing our better players each summer either but I just don’t want to say it is player greed that is the cause. I blame the asswipes offering them the money and the other owners that don’t do anything to try to create FFP rules with teeth.

  246. Hahaha Duke,

    So you’d be ok with RvP’s move if he had been fitter? Where you fine with Cesc wanting to leave too?

  247. khalifha at 7:10 pm – bravo

  248. yes.

  249. Sorry if a few others want to question my morals but I have to go enjoy the weather now. My bike beckons.

  250. Maybe it was the money, maybe it was a desire to win trophies and maybe it was a bit of both. I don’t know exactly what was in RVP’s head, only he knows what he meant. It just appears that his statement, no matter how it was wrapped up, was all about him getting out of Arsenal as soon as possible. He talks in the statement about not extending his contract and he makes reference to the fact that he can no longer keep quiet. Is he really that appalled by what he’s heard that he has to make a statement from his own website rather than agreeing a joint statement with the club? And he’s the captain!
    As I said, maybe it is about winning trophies as well, but I think his statement would have looked a lot stronger if we hadn’t already been more active in the transfer market than a number of our opposition.
    I personally believe that his statement was exactly that, a statement of intent. A clear “come and get me”. Playing out the last year on his contract is no good to RVP because at nearly 30 the lucrative deal on offer will be nowhere near as attractive as the ones he has likely been offered now.

  251. pedantic george

    Henristic I disagree with your thinking that RVP would leave if we were paying City type wages to him.
    I agree 100% with Duke on this matter.

  252. philmar | July 22, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Sorry if a few others want to question my morals but I have to go enjoy the weather now. My bike beckons.
    _______________
    Give your missus my best man.

  253. it does piss me off the whole thing. Signing Podolski and Giroud IS ambition. IF he stayed and formed a trio of Giroud, Podolski and RvP that would be the most leathal trio in the PL. And that is a fact, if RvP cannot see that he is blind. United are not guaranteed any trophies no more than Arsenal next year. Chelsea has strenghend profoundly, and City is well City. Pluss Arsenal are strong. United is not guaranteed shit next season, neitehr is City or Chelsea or Arsenal. There are four big clubs, all with good, strong teams. and only three trophies to be won. If one club wins two trophies that only leaves one trophy left which means two of these massive 4 clubs will end up trophieless. And that can be any of those 4 clubs.
    Its almost guaranteed that atlesst one of chelsea, united, Arsenal and city will walk away next year with no trophie.

    If he does go to Juve thogh, he has a real chance of winning the league. if he does go to City or United there is no more chance than last year imo. It does not matter if you are second or third, if you are 1 point behind the league winner or 12. You still have not won.

    With Podolski and Giroud playing with him he has a REAL chance to win something. As big a chance as with any of the other two teams. If he leaves Arsenal will have disadvantage, if he gets injured Arsenal will have a disadvantage, if he is not in it 100% arsenal will have a disadvantage. a 95% commited RvP is not good enough. Maybe we are better off flogging him off and use the money on something els.

    I do really hope we sell him to Juventus though, i can imagin the Italian league would fit him well, slower, less physical, less chance for injuries. Is a good league to grow old in…..
    Going to United or City he proves ones and for all that his heart was never in Arsenal. He will just become another Nasri….. And that is a shame.
    When people say “ah but hes been so loyal, stayed here for 7 years”. well you try seling a player that is injured 50% of every season and you will quickly understand there is a reason for his “loyalty”… RvP has not had a chance to switch club until now, as hes not been good enough until last season. Hes always been injured. Him staying at arsenal for7 years has nothing to do with him being loyal, but more to do with him being constantly injured in the past.

    Anyway, had United signed Podolski and Giroud they would be seen as very ambitious, a club that wants to win something. Why els would you sign two strikers from two of the absolute elite national teams in the world ?
    Arsenal not having ambitions is bullshit no matter what RvP says. He knows it, we know it, everyone knows it.

  254. honestly, going away on vacation for 4 weeks and when you come home, arsenal is going crazy??
    how rude..lol

  255. Happy birthday to the man like PaulN! Have a blast mate.

  256. Poddle – Good post.

  257. yeah happy b’day old timer paul.

  258. “We have a new assistant manager in Steve Bould and he has been doing a lot of defensive work on the training pitch, which has been very good so far I believe, so hopefully we will concede less as well, which is my personal hope anyway.”

    Arsenal conceded 49 goals in the league last season, a figure which the Polish stopper admitted was far too many. He knows that reducing the goals-against column will be key to the Gunners’ fortunes this season.

    “We didn’t have a lot of luck with injuries to defenders last season. Hopefully this year we can have a settled back four, a strong bench as well, and concede less goals,” said Szczesny. “As I said, with the work Steve Bould has been doing so far, it’s looking positive.”
    ——————-
    Good to read that Bouldy is already having an effect.

    Bill should be pleased, at least! 🙂

  259. i agree with that poodle….rvp will have a great chance of silverware if he stays with us…a strikeforce of rvp giroud and podolski would be one of the best in the league….so the money agenda looks even more true from that angle.

    Robin Van Persie…..ca ching..ca ching…ca ching

  260. What really makes me laugh is the media’s take on all this. When we signed Podolski and Giroud the press were reporting that Arsenal had got the jump on some of their opponents, with Chelsea being the only club to have made the early purchases (picking up both Hazard and Marin). Since RVP’s announcement we are now the club the journalists like to attack again, we are expected to fail (like we have so obviously done repeatedly in the past?). Our two new signings have suddenly been dismissed out of hand as either not good enough, or two inexperienced.
    RVP will be a loss, but I’m starting to come round to the view that I really don’t give a shit where he goes. He’s just another money grabbing cunt and he can fuck off.

  261. Only other club……….sorry

  262. George,
    Fair enough. Its impossible to read his mind at this stage. For every Cesc or Arteta who’s (reportdely) willing to take a paycut, there always loads others who would only follow the money.

  263. Ah, and happy birthday to Paul-N! Hope you having a blast.

  264. Philmas, must say tho, i myself enjoy a rant or 3, it just gets depressing at times, i’ve even begun to lose to ability of getting excited/optimistic about a new season, no thanks to the League of extraodinary cunts(led by Robin in his cape) – Now all i want to read are comments filled with Rainbow and Sunshine, nice start Dex.

    I see rainbow and shit, then i said to myself, What ah wonderful club – Arsenal! I love em.

  265. Great post, poodle. I also agree. If RVP goes to one of our opponents, it won’t guarantee him anything. The league is as competitive as it ever was — and realistically speaking — there are probably 4 or 5 times next season who can be expected to challenge for the title. Some of those teams might have a marginally bigger chance of winning than others, but it’s all about fine margins. If he is really serious about winning something and it’s not about the money, then he should go to Juventus. He would earn less than at the Manchester clubs, but he would have a really good chance of winning the italian league and traditionally Italian clubs have done very well in the CL in the last 20 or so years, too.

  266. Rarely in my near 80 years of supporting Arsenal, have I felt so confident of the approaching season.
    We are close to getting rid of RVP, who wants to leave. I cannot see last term’s heroics being repeated and a shrewd investment of his transfer fee will strengthen the squad still further.
    We have signed Podolski and Giroud and I suspect Wenger is not finished his buying.
    Wilshere and Diaby will be returning.
    Several players we signed last summer will be entering their second season in the EPL, when their experience should begin to tell.
    This all adds up to Arsenal being real contenders in every competition entered.
    The future looks bright indeed.

  267. Thanks for some positivity nicky. I agree with you, I have not been this confident, or excited about a new season in years, yet our captain shooses now to act like a spoilt brat.

  268. Well, if either one of Lukas or Olivier manages to hit the ground running — like Chamakh did when he was signed — Mr. Van Persie will be forgotten very, very quickly.

  269. Robin who?

  270. pedantic george

    RVP has done more damage than any player .And he was the last one you would have expected if from.
    No wonder Frank is so bitter and twisted I would have felt the same if Andrei had turned Judas.

  271. Exactly!

  272. In the end, yes, we Arsenal fans have real reason for excitement. Two prolific forwards waiting to show what they are made of, Wilshere coming back, Diaby hopefully ready to put his injury history behind him and fulfil his potential, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gervinho, Arteta, Mertesacker all settled and ready for their second season with us. Mid-August can’t come quick enough!

  273. Am actually more excited about seeing Chamberlain and Miyaichi tear up the wings, i can see it now, fullbacks shitting themselves at the thought of those two speedsters making fools out of them. Ah, brings a smile to my face 😉

  274. RVP,RIP

  275. pedantic george

    dukegoonem
    click click click

  276. The R.a.t has left the building, Bye Bye R.v.p

  277. Btw, R.a.t – Really annoying twat, has a nice ring to it.

  278. r.v.p was the v.i.p, m.v.p now he is r.i.p..

  279. Just look how a little bit of real forward-looking confidence has spread excitement and confidence throughout a hitherto sober and serious site.

  280. sorry i forgot he is still our captain and our player…i will refrain from any rvp bashing untill he is packing his louis vuitton man bag.

  281. Ha, very true nicky.

    Infact Duke, i say we put a lil cheese in the louis voitton man bag for the R.a.t to grub on while he sits on top of the sheikhs lap discussing his ‘love’ for Arsenal, i mean we ‘re talking about a very hungry rat.

  282. If you now understand how grief works, we have at least achieved something.

  283. yep rvp has managed to give us plenty of grief in a summer again yog’s.

  284. Duke

    You left a comment – sorry deleted it by accident. Got s new smartphone, shame the person operating it is an idiot!

  285. I am watching Chelsea vs PSG and am not convinced that Chelsea can make the transition from a power team anchored by Drogba to a team of small nippy footballers. Yes, Lampard and Terry are still around but they are over the hill and are physically unable to carry a team thru a season. Early days yet but I have my doubts.

    PS: Warren Barton couldn’t resist the opportunity to put the boot in with the RVP situation. Gloated we are a selling club who cannot compete. Gawd, how I wish we could kick his words down his throat. Won’t be easy though.

  286. Nice post YW… I must however point out that just because of the selfish behavior of some players does NOT and should not mean we treat them all the same. We do have some wonder full. Young men at our club and they choose ARSENAL over many others precisely for our humanist approach to our players. Cut players out by all means but treat the good ones with. Decency. UP. THE. GUNSSSSS!!!!!!

  287. My wife put it simply. If RvP goes to ManC or ManU he has no soul for football. He has let himself down. I’ve seen it many times. All it means is he’s ordinary. Everyone thinks this is about money. It’s not, it’s about lack of imagination.

  288. Nicky said everything. Let’s get rid of this weak link and strengthen. Lack of imagination leads to lack of courage. RvP, like Cesc Fabregas, is basically a coward; exposed he runs for cover and calls it money or ambition. There is a reason we did not do better with such players.

  289. Greedy for medals and/or money maybe. But he is hardly a coward. A complete and utter cunt, possibly. But coward, no. As for ‘no soul for football’. I think your wife is wrong, ZP. You only have to watch the way the guy plays to see that. You can call RvP many things but he was or is a great footballer, not ordinary.

  290. If he is not playing for us next season, that will be a great loss. Retrievable but nonetheless a great loss.

  291. It’s that we so wanted the courage of convictions Frank from Robin, not redundancy of courage; we didn’t get it, not yet, instead we got a silly post from his agent. But Arsene himself has not given up the ghost, not at all. He is fighting tooth and nail for his man. That should guide us.

  292. It should not surprise us that Arsene’s efforts result in Robin totally turning around his view of his situation and saying, ah, Arsenal does have “it” after all. I like straight talking myself. It is possible that his agent is a clever man saying OK, how much do you want him?

  293. I agree with Frank on this.

    If you look at this as a complete neutral (which is hard I know), RvP has little reason to stay with us. If he was ever going to move, this is the point which he would. And we are giving him little incentive to stay.

    The only reason to stay is that of loyalty. If he wants higher wages and a better chance of winning some medals he will move. In pains me to say that, but it is what it is. I am gutted and dissapointed on one hand, but I actually understand him wanting to leave on the other. Still think his staement was out of order thuogh.

  294. Zim – Yeah maybe, and I do hope you are right.

  295. No I think that RvP was tapped up by the Abu Dhabians in January, Zp. Whether he follows through with his agents amateurish strategy has yet to be seen. But he has graduated from hero to anti-hero (otherwise known as a cunt) almost over night.

  296. 297th? I heard on his Summer off Chamakh was having hypnosis sessions with Derren Brown. He is going to be a machine this season!

  297. “The only reason to stay is that of loyalty.”

    Given his Arsenal career to date, that would seem to be a good reason not to fuck off at the first opportunity.

  298. GA

    “If he wants . . . . . . a better chance of winning some medals he will move.”

    Well, there’s a very small number of clubs who would give him a better chance of winning serious medals than we do, so, if you’re right, it’s a very small market. We’ve yet to see how much they’re prepared to pay for him (and to pay him – though, of course, this has nothing to do with money.)

  299. Yogi Why do you have a picture of Stoke fans cheers at the top of the page?

  300. Yogi

    Your post of 10:06 pm (up above)………so astute.

  301. If only we could prove that RvP was tapped up. Then we would have man shity by the balls.

  302. It always amazes me on this site that when a player announces his intention to leave , all of a sudden he becomes an “ordinary” player from once being the “best striker in the EPL”!!!!

  303. I don’t think anyone on here has ever accused RVP of being in any way “ordinary” as a player. Certainly no-one in their right mind could accuse him of being that. That isn’t what ZimPaul meant when used the word. There are are question marks over his character, not his ability. That’s not in doubt.

  304. Frank 8:07am. Sagna recently tweeted that he was back from the middle east… Ominous.

  305. Why Markus do you think he might be a sleeper terrorist just waiting to be activated? 😉

  306. Limestonegunner

    ManU and Chrlsea are all over my screens the last week. I think even a ManCity game was on and the Spuds will be too! Disgusting. When are Arsenal coming to North America? I wonder if any of our preseason games will be on the telly out here. Certainly in these markets we are losing ground. And it is also partly because we do look like a selling club to outside observers. When you sell your best players to rivals for three or four years, that’s the impression given. Even AW said it last summer.

    Yes, the market for RvP is small, only a handful of clubs, but several do offer better chances to win in a too league. We haven’t done so and been close maybe twice in the last seven years in the league and once or twice in the CL, a final and a semi ( though we had an easy run to that semi and lost to the first top team we encountered).

    Hopefully next season will be different but without RvP, that much harder. What I believe we really need now to improve those chances is a creative midfield attacker. To make Pidolski and Giroud prosper with chances and replace Rosicky who is injured for the start of the season, our only proven effective player there. Notably AW said we had plenty of DM and box to box midfielders when asked about M’Vila. He notably didn’t need to mention box to box and didn’t rule out CAM. That could be the position RvP is most interested in–Cesc replacement–by my suspicions gleaned and posted last week, unless of course he is not 100% motivated purely and exclusively by money in this decision. Even George was willing to allow that after an interminable exchange with GA yesterday. Maybe this Cazorla link comes good. Maybe we keep RvP next season. Maybe we go on then to win the league! Maybe makes us contenders. I wouldn’t say the two new strikers on their own or even the possible injury returners do. CAM does, I think. The other hope is that Ramsey makes a big big leap forward. Healthy with a full season’s experience, and novRvP shooting daggers at him!

  307. It seems that JD gooner is more interested in arguing with other fans then the in the health of his Football Club. That’s a surprise. Go get ’em. Tiger. Grrrrr.

  308. Limestonegunner

    Should be good news Markus; he was there for treatment on his ankle. Or is the mere presence in the Gulf a new cause for alarm?

  309. Limestonegunner

    Nice one, Dex! Been a bit of hostility (justly IMO) laced with some anti-Arab sentiment (not as nice, remember Chelsea? The whys may be different but it’s the same sugar daddy thing).

  310. He should close down Arsenal soccer school Dubai if it’s giving them the chance to tap our players.

  311. Limestonegunner

    Apologies for the iPhone typos:
    Too league = top league
    Nov RvP= no RvP

    The main ones corrected anyway…

  312. Limestonegunner

    Right-o Maceo, those 5-11 year olds from the Middle East region who take the classes are being poached. Oh, the instructors, you mean–those retired former players or career youth coaches or whomever else does the Arsenal summer holiday courses!

  313. They can go to the AC Milan, Barca or Man U soccer schools for all I care.😊

  314. Wenger confirms Arsenal are not interested in signing Rennes midfielder M’villa

    ‘No. We wait for Diaby and Wilshere ‘ – My brain did a triple back flip after reading that, but there’s more

    ‘When he is fit, Diaby is the first name on the French team sheet. When you look we have Alex Song, Aaron Ramsey, Francis Coquelin, Diaby, Wilshere and Mikel Arteta’ – Now am thinking okay, okay, i see where your going with this,

    ‘We are not short if Diaby and Wilshere are coming back. If we have setbacks in pre-season, it could be different.’ – Relief! Don’t play with me like that Wenger, jeez 😉

    I felt we needed another DM/AM or both, i’m guessing Aw is more interested in an AM.

  315. Wenger confirms Arsenal are not interested in signing Rennes midfielder M’villa

    ‘No. We wait for Diaby and Wilshere ‘ – My brain did a triple back flip after reading that, but there’s more

    ‘When he is fit, Diaby is the first name on the French team sheet. When you look we have Alex Song, Aaron Ramsey, Francis Coquelin, Diaby, Wilshere and Mikel Arteta’ – Now am thinking okay, okay, i see where your going with this,

    ‘We are not short if Diaby and Wilshere are coming back. If we have setbacks in pre-season, it could be different.’ – Relief! Don’t play with me like that Wenger, jeez 😉

    I felt we needed another DM/AM or both, i’m guessing Aw is more interested in an AM.

  316. Limestonegunner

    Modric making RvP look responsible and Spuds taking some heat off us. VdV essentially endorsing the move and openly sympathizing with Modric! Is he on his way out too?

    spuds will be unsettled with new AVB regime, Modric affair. Chelsea has thrown big money at their midfield, but will take some time to gel, Marin, Oscar, Hazard, maybe Hulk. New to the PL. Liverpool in transition as well. Perhaps we will be strong for 3rd again, even with our disorder, though we need to keep Theo. but I like the moves Newcastle are making. With two surgeries on Sagna’s ankle and a late start to the season, we could have used Debuchy–good buy for 5 million. Was France’s best player at Euros, I thought. But Sagna or he wouldn’t want to sit and above all this would have killed Jenkinson…

  317. Limestonegunner

    Good guess, Caliph, or at least that was my guess just above.

  318. Lack of imagination? Certainly.


    “Hey everyone. The gaffer has given me a few days off. How about some we look at the options for our holiday.

    Indian Ocean/Mid.East.
    We have the Seychells: Beach.
    The Maldives: Beach.
    Mauritious: Beach.
    Sri Lanka has had some great reviews amidst all the shooting & beaches. And Dubai: Fake beach with some, er, duty free. Which you could never find anywhere else.
    Well? What’s it going to be? “

  319. Limestonegunner

    I’d go for Mauritius, myself, Fins! A colleague excavated two sites, an escaped African slave encampment and a South Asian indentured labor site, which are now UNESCO world heritage sites! So some history and culture to appreciate as well.

  320. The ownership of a football club by another country is the butt of my criticism. The deliberate undermining of another football club by that country is another target for my criticism. The mobilisation of the principal media organisation within that country which is owned by that country to undermine that other football club is also the target of my criticism. In other words my focus is upon Abu Dhabi and the UAE and the despicable behaviour of its ‘owners’….. not Arabs.

  321. LSG
    Anywhere with a nice Beach would do for me. So, not Dubai then! The lack of a sewage system in that progressive metropolis would make me weary of taking a dip.

  322. Limestonegunner

    Of course, Frank. That’s all very clear and reasonable. Some others haven’t been so precise, and that’s what made Dex’s post both funny and a bit pointed, for me. That ought to be appreciable.

    Apart from the destabilization, which Barca has also done to us and we rightly despise–and apart from the media manipulation (which takes the anti-Arsenal tend to a new level against our interests), what’s so terrible about rich royals buying a club compared to an oligarch? The way I see it, they share the meaningful contrast with us and others by having vast amounts financially doping them. The other distinctions of one man’s ego vs. a national pride/ego of a group of related individuals who control a country is somewhat ancillary. Do we think Abramovitch doesn’t have his media cronies and his outlets to Russian newspapers either? Wealth of both is ill-gotten oil. Why single tis out as worse than Chelsea or categorically different. Even if there are differences, the meaningful and relevant category is financial doping as far as we are concerned. Right now we face them most directly so we must fight them. Hence I am dead set against selling him to them even if we lose some on the transfer fee.

  323. Now come on Finsbury, that’s a load of shit. And you know it.

  324. A very happy belated birthday N-Paul. May God continue to bless you and enable you to celebrate many more birthdays in the coming years.

    When is this debate ever going to be over?Van persie is dead to me, well unless the issue is resolved and he continues to dorn the red & white(blue) in the coming season.

    In other news thank ya’ll who recommended the wire, I am on season 3 at the moment and enjoying myself tremendously. Jonny season 5 of breaking bad is back, I am so anxiously waiting for the episodes to accumulate so I can watch the whole of it at a go.

    Zimpaul I havent been able to comment recently but thanks for putting up Oliver mtukudzi up on music Thursdays last week, I barely recognize most of the music put up so it was nice for a change to recognize something I have listened to.

  325. Limestonegunner

    Chelsea gazumped us for Mata and for years have distorted the market. They turned Cole’s head and have followed our scouts around the world scooping up talent that they don’t develop and scuppering our deals or raising the cost of them. They are the original bad actors in the PL. Now there is an even bigger beast hunting in the forest with more weapons to use, perhaps.

  326. Yes, Chavski are despicable too…as are PSG

  327. What interests me
    1. How fit and strong Diaby is
    2. Anything interesting about Olivier Giroud
    3. How Podolski is settling
    4. How is Ryo rated by those who know
    5. Theo’s and Song’s attitude to the new season
    6. Any young players coming through
    7. When Jack gets back to full training
    8. That Santos is fit and strong
    9. How the back four is doing with Bould
    10. Who’s the #2 keeper
    11. How the team looks, as a team

    What doesn’t interest me:
    1. Who City and Chelsea have bought
    2. How ManUnited’s SA trip is going
    3. Whether Modric or Carroll are coming or going
    4. Any comparison between EPL and any American sports

    Take it or Leave it
    1. RVP
    2. Our Asian junket
    3. Anything else

  328. Now then JD Gooner would you show me where someone has said that Rvp is an ordinary player?

  329. Limestonegunner

    Thanks for the updated list, ZP. Sorry I have failed to entertain you this morning. Will try to do better for next morning. (Note to self, find something, anything, interesting about Olivier Giroud)! 🙂

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