Posted by: Yogi's Warrior | July 12, 2009

Pre Season Sunday Round-Up

Alisher Usmanov is not going to go quietly but in following a high risk strategy, he risks becoming a lame duck investor. According to the, ahem, usually reliable News of the World, the Sheriff Fatman is going to call an EGM to put his proposal for a Rights Issue to the vote.

Which is perhaps the ultimate in gesture politics for a shareholder. With the Board at very close to 50% control of the voting rights, he looks very likely to be defeated in his objective. No doubt he will hope for a close run thing but for him, it will mean public scrutiny of his plans and open questioning of his motives, something that he has reluctant to let happen to date.

Overall, it is an unlikely scenario for it puts the Uzbek into a corner but it also explains Stan Kroenke buying shares this week. His tally is closer to the 30% level than Fatman’s and therefore he may have enough to stop an Usmanov takeover bid in its tracks even with a beneficial Rights Issue for the Uzbek. It is interesting that most sniping has taken the form of criticising the current Board for not investing directly into the club as if it is something that Usmanov has been doing all along. No, the Uzbek has not put one penny into the club and indeed is more intent on taking something out, having previously demanded that dividends be paid on his shareholding.

Problematically none of the detractors has come up with the sustained model arising from the Rights Issue. Assuming that it is spent clearing the loans surrounding the properties, the outcome of that is to save the club £5m per season (using rough roundings on the interest payments). That does not buy a player of the calibre that everyone demands: it might pay their wages but not their purchase.

The remainder of the funds once loans are cleared may be enough to buy one world class player this summer but with prices the way that they are, I would not like to bet on it. What happens next summer though? Where is the funding to make a similar purchase? If someone can come up with a strong argument, bring it on.

It wouldn’t be a Sunday if there were not comings and goings happening. Crossing paths at Terminal 5 apparently are Alex Hleb and Eider Gudjohnsen, looking wistfully at the Barcelona suit who is carrying a suitcase full of used Euros that will apparently be enough for Arsenal to let Cesc take the return flight to the Catalan capital.

It is at this point that they will see Mikael Silvestre moving towards the departure gate for Bordeaux, no doubt light of luggage to board his Ryanair flight and considerably lighter in the wallet once all of their add-ons have negated the cheapness of the flight.

Philippe Senderos has to go City Airport for his flight to Sunderland although he is going to meet old chum, Patrick Vieira there to save on the cab fare to the Stadium of Light. All of which is nice but spare a thought for poor old Armand Traore as he leaves the M40 for a cup of tea in a beaten-up Hillman Imp on the way to Birmingham for a year of living dangerously at St Andrews.

A quiet Sunday before the pre-season really kicks in. ’til Tomorrow.


Responses

  1. Morning yawning

  2. S*** you Spike. I wanted to be 1st…..It’s been a while.

    ….2nd……

  3. And 3rd…..

    So maybe I get more points than Spike, for getting 2 out of the three pole positions.

  4. Take that SPIKE!!!!

    Oh 4th as well…..now where does that leave you?

  5. According to readings obtained from the Centre Of Football Volcanoes, activities going on at Mount Emirates, known to have been sleepy for four years now is expected to erupt anytime soon. The reports shows that the lava flow is expected to cause an overflow of trophies that would result in Mount Emirates’ trophy cabinet expansion.

  6. Sorry Ateeb!

    I was just trying to find the stuff that Yogi was supposed to have written that Kelsey found so unpleasant and saw the link to today’s post!

  7. Let’s suppose that by coming into conflict with Arseblog ACLF has indeed become a laughing stock, as JonJon claims. Well then, it joins company with Almunia, Gallas, Silvestre, Senderos, Song, Diaby, Rosicky, Denilson, Eboue, Arshavin, Adebayor, Robin van Persie, Walcott, and Bendtner – all of whom have been victims of Arseblogger’s ridicule. Since ACLF is a blog for Arsenal supporters, it seems it is on the right side.

    May ACLF be a laughing stock for many years to come!

  8. If the NOTW is right for once and there is an EGM, it would be interesting to see which other shareholders vote for the rights issue apart from R & W holdings.

    I doubt Lady Nina would vote for the rights issue as she may be averse to plough money into the club. Her holding in the club was inherited and I doubt she will throw more money at it. How many small shareholders vote for the rights issue will be interesting.

    In any case, even if the rights issue goes ahead it may be too late to make any purchases with the proceeds this season. Wenger has maintained that he would like the transfer activity to be over at the earliest this season and the rights issue cannot help us in purchasing players this season. At the most it can help reduce the debt.

  9. Kelsey seems to be under the impression that you directed some words to me, YW. Would you remind me what they were please.

    in the mean time…..

    Fuck off, kelsey.

    *

    By: Frank on July 12, 2009
    at 10:22 am
    —————————————————–

    And a very good morning to you Frank.Surely your eagle eyes didn’t miss YW’s comments,is your short term memory failing.tut.tut.

    You started this,and as suspected, retort to your usual response of f*** off.

    Keep going Frank, as you slowly but surely will bring this excellent blog down.YW writes an exceptional blog,as I have stated on several occasions,I had as much right as anyone to raise issue with just one comment he made, which if you must know,touched a nerve with me.

    What you don’t get,is that I am neither a troll,a wind up merchant or sarcastic. i enjoy a good bit of banter with anyone,and a good sense of humour is always a plus.

    Never mind Frank, you may learn from this experience,though I must say,I expected better from you.

  10. Rafa Benitez’s revelation that he had received offers for Torres for around 60 million pounds is interesting.

    http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/113390/Rafa-Torres-not-for-sale

    The money floating around this summer is absurdly high and when you consider the wages Torres would command and the duration of the contract, it would have been a 100 million + transfer if it had been sanctioned.

  11. Kelsey, you are spoiling the decor of this blog by continually posting tripe. If you have anything about the club to discuss it would be great.

    If things always touch a raw nerve with you how can you enjoy any banter as you claim? Please post something related to the club or post nothing at all. Lets move on. Please.

  12. ACLF just keeps getting better.

    I agree with Kelsey. Keep going Frank.

    JJ writes excrutiatingly long and winding posts and needs a long and wounding hug. Nings.

  13. Alex,

    read what I said please. I quote,

    I had as much right as anyone to raise issue with just one comment he made, which if you must know,touched a nerve with me.

    Iwill discuss anything you wish about the Arsenal,and give my honest opinion,which may lead to debate or not,but why do so many of you label some that come on here as trolls,doom merchants etc,or just tell them to f*** off.

    if I didn’t want debate,I ouldn’t keep replying.

    Alex, you have a knack such as many others as taking a post out of context and only referring to parts that suit you.Anyway,no harm intended,if Frank runs the site,and he has accused me of being another poster called sol gunner or sol gooner than so be it,there is no purpose in continuing this conversation.

  14. Kelsey,

    What are your views with regard to the rights issue proposed by Usamanov?

  15. http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2009/07/12/prem-star-attacked-as-he-sits-in-restaurant-115875-21512959/

  16. Fuck off Kelsey.

  17. We’ve had some long goodbyes on this site, but 2 days?!

  18. Kelsey, in all seriousness what’s the point? Some people here clearly don’t get you nor you them. Isn’t it probably best to just move on?

  19. Alex,

    you mean Umanov, I presume. Personally I don’t thing the proposed rights issue would benefit the club,and secondly having read about the man’s history,I feel his intentions are for sole profit,not for the long term benefit of the club.

    I read somewhere that it would be better if he bought all the unsold apartments and make himself a long term profit,thus releasing finance now to either reduce the loan on the stadium or/and provide some extra finance for any additional player,if required.

    Off to the beach,gladly discuss this later on tonight.

  20. that made me smile alex !

  21. my mistake Usmanov.

  22. The Bently stuff is horrible. I mean Bentley comes across as a total jerk but the idea of football evoking that sort of an attack is awful.

  23. Its not often that one sees hacks take the piss out of Sir JT.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/michaelcalvin/2009/07/12/brand-terry-115875-21512658/

    It would be a delicious irony if the captain of the chavs proves he is the biggest chav of them all by leaving for even more money to Citeh. Chelsea used the offer of higher wages to lure players in the past and now the birds are coming home to roost.

  24. Now that WAS funny! Unintentional, but funny nonetheless!

    Kelsey, you pulled Alex up for mispellin USMANOV (erm , just making sure Ive speleed it right too!), then proceeded to mispell it!

    I know, I know, small things please small minds etc!

  25. Haha! Speleed!!! SPELLED!

  26. “The idea of football evoking that sort of an attack is awful.”

    I agree to some extent. I wouldn’t condone attacking Bentley; but what about the lesser Ronaldo?

  27. Is there any news ?

  28. It’s alll Queen of Suburbia’s fault spike.

    I think we both got distracted.Hence the spelling mistakes ;)

  29. Why is it alll my fault?

  30. There is NO news today,

    on BBC News 24, the presenters are showing the viewers their holiday fotos via a Powerpoint presentation, on Sky News, they are giving each other hickeys, while on CCN the presenters are havin an arm wrestling competition…

  31. And on Fox news they are still claiming that Saddam had WMD’s.

  32. QoS, you dont understand. Kelsey was being smooth, suave and debonair.

  33. Hrummphhhh…sack the board… we need signings.

  34. Agreed Muppet. 11 days have passed since the transfer window passed. 11. Whole. Days.

    Get a grip Gazidas.

  35. QoS,

    I am all mixed up now.Should I stay or should i go. It was actually just a lame excuse,to show none of us are word perfect,sometimes.

    Anyway,english is not my native language.

  36. Where are you from Kelsey ? We could tell you to fuck off in your native language.

  37. Mupeet are you related to Frank, you have the same tone about you.

    I was born in london,as stated before,but it might get a little complicated for your simple mind for me to explain further.

  38. LOL “Beaten up Hillman Imp” shows your age old son, mind you, that car would probably be newer and more reliable than most of these tabloid transfer stories.

  39. I have to agree with QoS, as much as I despise Bentley, I can’t condone that.

    The JT thing on the other hand was funny.

  40. Kelsey, you really are a sad case.

  41. kelsey, who is Mupeet?

  42. Nice post, YW.

  43. guys nedved has annouced he will leave the italian game he would be a great signing for a season just a thought…..

  44. I was concerned that the rights issue posturing might disturb the preparation of the squad, which hardly needs enhancing it is so good, in their pre-season training. But now i think it is a useful albeit unintentional diversion of hack attention away from players. Good thing.

    I don’t want anyone to own the club outright. Must never be allowed to happen ever again.

  45. Would someone just hug him, and get this over with!!!

  46. Signings!!!!! They should spend some money….we’ve renewed our season tickets…it’s up to Arsenal now.

    We’re paying the most expensive tickets for anything in the galaxy to watch unknown Frenchies and Afros….

    Usmanov’s money may smell, but it will but big names. That’s what we need …big names names like Stefanopoulos Alexandropoulos

    Matuidi—just 3 syllables. So not a big name.

  47. silver gunner,

    Nedved was class but he is 36 now and we have so many attacking midfielders who are in the prime of their career.

  48. Ole Gunner, where has all the money of my lager and sandwiches disappeared? That is for the board to answer. I am one of many fans who shop every month at the Armoury. Where is that money?

    I read the annual report as I am a shareholder. I cant make head or tails of it. Something then must be wrong. My financial illiteracy is not as fault. It is the board I tell ya!

  49. Is the excitement building in Nigeria, GfN? Do you have coverage of the buildup all day?

  50. Talking of big name strikers, I will spit my dummy out if we buy Jo.

  51. We need a suicide hacker. To go over to that site, sacrifice himself, and take down that site.

  52. JonJon and Kelsey are incorrigible creeps. Seems they are trying to get into YW’s knickers now.

  53. Youn want bign names eh? Behold, I give you the biggest name;

    Jan Venegoor of Hesselink

  54. Or just the longest? Cannot remember…

  55. We need a £50M player. Look at Chelsea, they’ve been linked to 10 £50M+ players…..Let’s buy John Terry…..

    £50M that’s just 50,000 season tickets. Football has moved on. We have to compete. If players cost more than the stadium…we have to compete or Sunderland will overtake us in the Top 4!

  56. Strange, not one football pundit calling Terry a slimy grasping greedy unloyal twit.

    Who’d have thought it?

  57. Yes, yes, very good. But what about the lesser Ronaldo? Are we all in favour of somebody punching him in the face?

  58. Spike,

    Pierre Van Hooidjonk

    Edson Arantes di Nasciemento

    Kleberson Edson Gomes Kierrison

    Big names! Not some Afro-French unknown whose name sounds like thunder -Matuidi!

  59. Yeah Pz am in favour of that with one condition. That Mike Tyson be the one to punch him.

  60. Well using the same convention as Jan which is only fair, there is a defender who plays in Wales gos by the name of……

    Eiddon Griffiths of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

  61. Usmanov is claiming that Arsenal are in financial meltdown and fans are losing patience and he can be the remedy.

    How can we be in financial meltdown when we have spent £25 million in the last 7 months?

    The vast majority of fans I encounter are completely against him taking over the club. Mr Usmanov you are not wanted at Arsenal, please go and fuck up the Spud’s.

  62. LOL Frank

  63. Frank – I thought that was with 8 g’s, not 7.

  64. In New Zealand there is a team called…

    Tetaumatawhakatangihangakoauaotamateaurehaeaturipukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuaakitanarahu FC…

    But I don’t know any players names. If you live there I guess it would be very tempting to change your name by deed poll…..

  65. Tetaumatawhakatangihangakoauaotamateaurehaeaturipukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuaakitanarahu FC

  66. Frank – Christ, what do they sign?

  67. Oh fuck, half of it keeps disappearing, apparently it is a magic word and if you get it in its entirety into the same comment…your team will win all competitions the following season.

    I will have another go…

    Tetaumatawhakatangihang
    akoauaotamateaurehaeaturip
    ukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhen
    uaakitanarahu FC

  68. Tetaumatawhakatangihangakoauaotamateaurehaeaturipukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuaakitanarahu FC by far the greatest team the world has ever seen!

  69. Thats it… Prem, ECL, FA and Carling Cups for us next year.

  70. Frank – But what about the crises at Arsenal? Do you think winning everything without spending £100 million will solve anything?

  71. Thats it Marc,

    And its…..

    Tetaumatawhakatangihang
    akoauaotamateaurehaeaturip
    ukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhen
    uaakitanarahu

    Tetaumatawhakatangihang
    akoauaotamateaurehaeaturip
    ukapihimaungahoronukupokaiwhen
    uaakitanarahu FC

    By far the longest named team the world has ever seen.

  72. They beat the opposition through an assualt on the ears.

  73. I dont think so Marc. Till that 100 million in soiled 20 pound notes is not splashed on two big and long name players, I will not get behind the club. Why should I, its my money they are spending.

  74. Well it seems to me, Marc, we should win everything next year…and then spend £100m making life more comfortable for the supporters. Pay to get the clock back into the ground. Make the bar and food outlets more like pubs….

    If I had £100m the first thing I would do is to buy the rights to that fucking awful Elvis Presley song, and refuse to let Arsenal play it on matchdays.

  75. Alex – Your right the greedy board are stealing our money. Call the police – Call Harry Redknapp.

  76. Frank – Agree re: the Elvis song, I’ve got no problem with Elvis but I think we need something more aggressive when the team come out. Although when we play Hull next season we should either play “19th Nervous Breakdown” or get the FooFighters to re-record “Breakout” as “Breakdown”

  77. Marc I would have called Harry Redknapp but for him being in police custody.

    The police dont understand serious financial fraud. I need to call the Financial Services Authority.

  78. Frank – The club would make more money if they got people served quicker with food & drink at half time. Anyone who gets to the front of the queue (after standing there for 10 min) and then goes er when asked what they want should be killed.

  79. Alex – You think that the FSA understands serious financial fraud?

  80. Lol Marc. No they dont have a freakin clue.

    But then, does the PL know what a ‘fit and proper person’ who can own a club is?

  81. why cant Usamov be frank and come clean. (with apologies to frank)

    We gota have money in the bank Frank, We gotta have money in the bank

    But not russian money.

    Strange though DD got the boot for talking with Kroenke, now DD has gone the yank is in and DD’s new friend is public enemy no one. LOL

    Do you get the feeling DD cant win

  82. I’ll tell you who understands serious financial fraud…

    Starts with a U, ends with a V, His face is full of Pee….

  83. I think the prob is that DD tried to sell without informing the board of his intentions…..DanDan

    DanDan, DD, PeePee

  84. DanDan – I thought DD had left Red & white Holdings?

  85. Is it the PL or FA who operate the “Fit & Proper persons test”?

  86. Does anyone know if that is true Ole or did they want to split DD and Wenger

  87. Dandan – It seems to be the popular consensus. The fact that Wenger and Dein are friends has not changed. If the board had not had good reason to remove Dein he would have claimed unfair dismissal.

  88. DanDan,

    Me-me no know.

    Seriously, who knows? You were suggesting DD was kick-kick-ed out for bring-bring-ing in Kroenke, and I was pointing out it might-might have been for doing so without board-board knowledge.

  89. Dandan,

    Why would anyone want to split a good partnership like DD and Wenger unless DD intentionally or unintentionally harmed the club’s interests?

    Also, its not as if the board was vey welcoming of Kroenke in the first place. Left to them, we would have neither Kroenke or Usmanov as shareholders today. But when Kroenke bought almost 10% of the club from ITV without the knowledge of the board and DD went on to break bread with Usmanov, the board had no choice but to ally with a person they considered the lesser of the two evils.

  90. Fair point Marc, but if DD did that would it not perhaps hamper his chance of getting back into football, which I presume a football politico like him would surely want to do

  91. Don’t know about all this boardroom mess, but i wouldn’t mind boning Lady Nina if thats any help.

  92. Sunday snooze

  93. Is not what I’m doing, but should be

  94. I cant help wondering if DD was perceived to be harming the other boards members interest, rather than the club he had served so well and loyally for so long.

    Yes i know he made lots of bucks, but suspect he would rather have stayed in tandem with Wenger, rather than take the money. After all wasn’t he about to take a big additional football job.

  95. Aaargh….I just need some football, some Arsenal football.

    Trollers – FFS why do post here? You guys like to throw stones, as they say start “flaming”, yet simply cannot take the return fire. Arsenal blogs like supporters have simply segmented themselves (just a fact of life) into certain categories. IMO: This is a multi-national, multi-cultural group of pro-AW, pro-sustainability, pro-youth policy group of supporters who are willing to aggressively defend and espouse that which is positive about AFC. Unlike many, most of us do not believe it is sufficient to “turn the other cheek” to the tabloid bloggers and rags that promote everything negative about a very sensible policy which eventually affects the fan-base whether on the internet or at the stadium. So for heavens sake go find another blog where you are happy espouse your views.

    A new season is almost upon us and I for one am not prepared to see the same B-S that marred the last campaign go un-noticed, whether it be on this blog or elsewhere.

  96. I saw a photo of Usmanov for the first time yesterday. He looked like he should have had Carrie Fisher chained to him.

  97. Shotto…. is that me you are popping at….. cos I am camped right in the middle of the group you describe.

    Sorry if I have wandered in where I am not wanted

  98. Dandan – In the words of the great Bob Marley:
    “Mi throw mi corn, mi no call no fowl.”
    -sg

  99. Dandan;

    My take, for what its worth is this;

    Dein tried to sell the club, behind the board;s back, he lied to the board, saying he was just trying to get a marketing/coaching link up with Kroenke’s Colorado Rapids team… he also lied to kroenke, saying he had the backing of the board, hence the fallout between the board and Dein and the board and Kroenke, innitailly.

    Then Dein went and found himself another billionaire to jump into bed with, gleefully sold all his shares in his beloved club and I imagine, thought he would return as the new chairman and stick one up PHW and Fiszman’s kazoos! Didnt work out that way, as, as soon as the vile Usmanov got shot of Dein as soon as he had served his purpose; ie; selling out to the Uzbek…

    The oily snake fucked himself right up, IMO and has burnt his bridges with everyone

  100. There is a possibility that Fiszman is the snake. Fiszman started to ‘tidy’ up his portfolio at the very start of this fiasco. Who the fuck ‘tidies up’ their portfolio?

  101. Frank – I don’t know enough about Fiszman to comment but according to the information available Dein acted at best underhandedly, at worst criminally.

  102. In fact the Hill-Woods started this whole sorry saga by selling their shares at a pittance. Once Norris left the club in the hands of Hill-Wood and Bracewell-Smith. A great chunk of the Bracewell-Smith shares remain in the family, but the Hill-Woods got rid of theirs. Could have gone to some sort of supporters Trust as they were not worth a lot at the time…..but they didn’t. That’s what happens when great working class institutionas get left in the hands of Etonians.

  103. Criminally, Marc?

  104. Frannk – I’m sure that trying to sell the share holdings of other people is not legal.

  105. Who knows? One day we’ll know what happened…

    All I know is that I am happy with the current board, and happy nobody owns the club outright. That’s how I hope we can keep it.

    Better would be to change Arsenal from a PLC into a a charitable corporation

  106. I think that Fiszman, having been brought in by DD, deliberately gave DD the impression that he wanted out of the club. I think he knew that DD was very powerful in the club, especially with his friendship with AW and also the players. DD was extremely well connected, the G14 has moreorless disbanded since his involvement.

    Fiszman took it upon himself to get rid of DD and to drive a wedge between him and the club. Once he had decided to get rid of him it was only a matter of time before he got the other Directors to agree to eject DD. Fiszman gave DD the impression that he was selling. DD took the only action he could thinking that Fiszman was selling and that was to look for a potential buyer of Fiszman’s shares. He found Kroenke who was nigh on perfect especially if DD remianed at the helm. But Fiszman then closed the trap and ‘exposed’ DD as a maverick. They ousted DD because they were afraid of his power, or at least they were afraid of Kroenke and DD’s combined power. The triumvirate of DD, Kroenke and AW was exactly what Arsenal needed. But Fiszman did not want that, so he got rid of DD.

    DDs actions after that were the actions of a deeply hurt and wounded man. He was desperate to get back at the helm of the club he loved. But Fiszman had destroyed everything. The relationship with Usmanov through R&W Holdings was an act of desperation.

  107. Fiszman is a hard, hard man and is playing everybody. Including us.

  108. Who knows. Maybe he knows what is best for the club and for the supporters. I suspect he knows what is best for Danny Fiszman though. Just look at the value of his shares.

  109. Lady Nina (not Neena) is probably the key in terms of knowledge of boardroom manouevres and in terms of keeping her shares for the good of the supporters.

  110. Ole Gunner – Agree the current board situation is the right way forward. I’d be a little concerned if we went the way of Arsenal becoming a trust with Presidential elections that we would end up with the merrygoround every few years of who can promise the most, however unlikely or potentially damaging to the club.

    I’d like to think that most Arsenal fans are to intelligent to fall for hollow promises but you only have to read the posts of some commenter’s here to have doubts.

  111. Erm, I was under Prfessor Moriarty, erm, I mean Fiszman was more than content to keep away from the club, stay living as a tax exile and leave it to others to do the day to day stuff. Dein’s underhand tactics changed all that, not to mention what has since happened with the uzbek…

    Dein is a snake, lets not try and deify the twat.

  112. So, does anyone feel that the club’s business has improved post-Dein? I think DanDan’s original point stands — it was not just Dein who was seen as a villain. In general the Arsenal blogosphere treated Kroenke the same way they treat Usmanov now — as a foreigner set on destroying the club. Apparently the blogosphere was wrong then but right now. Is that what I’m reading?

  113. *under the impression

  114. Cali;

    No, not for me, kroenke is the lesser of 2 evils, he was originally seen as a predator coz that is what Dein was after, so obviously the board had some antipathy towards him. Then they all kissed and made up, leaving Dein out in the cold…

  115. DD would have been guilty of gross misconduct if he was trying to find a buyer without the “club’s permission surely?

  116. Frank – Well we’ll see. What I would like to point out to you is that Kroenke is now only a tiny fraction from being forced to make a takeover bid. If Fiszman wanted Dein out to strengthen his position it has gone badly wrong as he is now in a weaker position.

  117. California Gooner – There are people who have accused Dein of being to close to the players, now usually this would not be seen as a problem but when Dein is the person negotiating deals with the same players it can cause problems. Ljungberg’s last contract had him on a reported £80k a week when he was clearly not the same player of a few seasons previously.

  118. No he isn’t though is he, Marc, his shares are worth a lot more as a result of the Emirates build. In fact the only way his shares would have rocketed is if the assets of the club rocketed.

    And, Spike, I have no wish to deify DD. But to claim he was of no worth to the club is worse than stupid. I am not seeking to forgive him for his acts of desperation after being cut off. But Fiszman needed him out. The Emirates is and always was the important strategy for Fiszman.

  119. Whether is it was important from a financial perspective or a long term football perspective, we have to wait and see.

  120. Again Marc, evidence against a man you already decided to condemn. And is that even evidence of anything? I mean really — so what? One bad contract. Does that trump losing Hleb and Flamini after losing the league by only 4 points?

  121. Frank – He is in a weaker position if he is forced to sell when he is a) unwilling or b) is waiting for the share price to increase still further. He has removed Dein (who had 15% or so) and now has someone with the potential to takeover the club, something Dein could never do.

  122. However it is time Kroenke explained his plans for the Arsenal. The little has said suggests he agrees with the sustainability model. But does he hope that the value of his shares will increase, thus building his wealth long-term? Or is he looking to come in and set his own ideas on the club, which would be less desirable…he doesn’t seem like a corporate raider….his clubs are well run….So far it doesn’t seem like he’s taking on expensive debt to buy the club even though there’s speculation he’s not paying cash for the Fiszman shares he bought…

    It is about time we heard from him.

    Marc- The charity doesn’t have to be run election…it could be run as it is now by the current board who by every measure still remain the best candidates to run the club…barring one or two additions (and subtractions).

  123. I don’t get your take on all this Frank.

    You have always supported Dein in the face of the evidence that we have. You sound like those who tell us what is going on with transfers or in the minds of players. Our response is that we actually do not know. Do you know that what you say about Fiszman is true?

    Dein had his day and did well for the club but he did plot aganinst the Board, ie., the club. He did oppose the new stadium. He did want to move to Wembley. The stadium was a good plan. Wembley would have been awful.

    What gives?

  124. Frank;

    I would hope its for the long term football perspective. Dein was good for the club, no doubting that, just he also made some very bad decisions and perhaps his hunger to be the numero uno cost him? Plus, it was him who wanted us to ground share Wembley, instead if moving to the Grove and the CL games there didnt exactly work out

  125. CG,

    I’m tired of this Hleb-Flamini thing. Mohammed on a bicycle!!

    Flamini followed the money. Hleb actually thought Barca would drop Iniesta for him. Players left under David Dein for fuckssakes.

  126. Spike if DD is a snake, he is surely a benevolent one, it was through his knowledge that Wenger was employed.

    Where would we be today if Rioch or a Graham type had been at the helm.

    Would we have this wonderful new stadium, or still be at a heavily mortgaged Highbury at the behest of some foreign predator who had taken the club years ago as a plaything and ego trip.

    Surely we have much to be thankful for, and no trophy for 4years, Pffff. I stood on the terraces for many years before the fairs cup win and endured the 1 – o to the Arsenal years.

    Give me the Wenger way any day

  127. Ole, sorry.

    I ran a charitable trust for many years and would not wish that governance model on any ‘business’ wanting to stay ahead in it’s field of operations.

  128. California Gooner – My opinion about Dein is based on the information available, before he left I had always thought he was a great asset to the club. It was after all Dein is pushed the board into hiring Wenger. His behaviour with first Kroenke and then Usmanov takes away all of the goodwill he had built up over the years.

    As for losing Hleb and Flamini, who do you blame for that? Hleb wanted to leave and was threatening to use the Webster clause and Flamini’s contract had run out. What should the board have done? Make Flamini an offer he couldn’t refuse. What would’ve you’d preferred putting a gun to his head or matching the wages AC Milan were offering.

  129. Ole Gunner – Someone still has to appoint the board. How do you suggest this is done?

  130. Sorry for trying your patience Ole. Sick of Hleb-Flamini but the Lundbjerg evidence should stand? You missed my point completely. Everyone who wheels and deals will make mistakes, but being close to the players is hardly a crime if it brings success. I don’t actually pretend to know what is right here — I just hope it all works out for the team on the field without compromising the team’s principles (i.e. buying like Chelsea or RM). But the way evidence follows on already formed judgments is shocking.

    As far as I can tell the ownership dispute is between a Russian oligarch and a Billionaire tax evader. The only guy who really seems to have a modern, professional knowledge of sports-management is the American. And the talents of Dein, who was clearly instrumental, are lost to the club.

  131. Overall, Fiszman has undoubtedly become weaker. From being the largest shareholder and key force of the club behind the scenes he has become merely an ally of Kroenke. If ousting Dein was his plan in the first place he has seriously blotched it up.

    From all available information it does seem that Dein forced the board’s hand by going behind their back. His ambition did him in. He was a good servant of the club and kudos to him but his era seems over as he has indeed burnt his bridges with everyone bar Usmanov.

  132. ConsolBob,

    I’m suggesting a charitable corporation which to all intents and purposes operates like a ltd company or PLC, except that the shareholders can never earn dividends, and if the company ever had to be wound down, then the capital can’t be returned to the shareholders but have to be transferred to another charity.

    Marc,

    Well we can have the current board to start with, and then set up a formula, for example saying that board members have to be invited, and they have to be Arsenal fans, season-ticket holders of many years standing, with a certian background in the corporate or public sector etc….

  133. CG – Of course people make mistakes. I used Ljungberg as an example. The point was that the board felt Dein was being to generous with contracts to easily.

  134. Ole Gunner – Invited by whom? What ever way you go you end up with an election of sorts. Not saying it’s a terrible idea just not as straight forward as you make out.

  135. anyhow, good debate all. if I don’t reply its because I have to head off, but I will happily read the discussion when I get back in…

    have a good sunday, or sunday evening (or monday), depending on where you happen to be…

  136. CG,

    We all loved and many still love David Dein. But if he truly went and started negotiating ownership and management changes behind the board, there was simply no way he could be kept.

    It’d be like if Henry leaked team tactics to the Spuds for money and we then lost 8-0 in the Champions League final. :)

  137. Ole, I understand how Trusts work. I was CE of two for most of my ‘career’.

    I would not see that sort of governance as any guarantee of stability or good decision making. I will put on one side the actual ability of that model to actually govern effectively.

  138. California Gooner,

    It is true that Dein’s talents have been lost to the club but from all accounts his own actions led to his sacking. He could have been Director of Football for life if he was satisfied with the status quo. As it turned out he was not satisfied and wanted to become Chairman & Managing Director.

    His coup against the board was unsuccessul and as in all unsuccessful coup’s, the perpretator is in the dock.

  139. once last point — is more like Henry leaked tactics and was kicked off the team — and then lost 8-0 …

  140. Change of topic but I watched a rerun of the Spud’s vs Arsenal match from 2004 (with the 4 – 5 scoreline) yesterday. Now obviously both clubs have seen a turnover in players but it got me thinking about how many mangers etc the Spud’s have gone through since then. It was Jol’s first game in charge after stabbing Santini in the back, they then had Ramos and now have Appy Arry. They have also lost Arnesen during this period.

    The only constant is Daniel Levy.

    How the hell does this man keep his job?

    They spend money on transfers like it’s water, promise everything from the garrentee of CL football to new stadiums. None of which ever emerge.

    And still the Spud fans don’t moan as much as some Arsenal fans.

  141. Consolbob,

    I’ll take your word for it. I’ve done little work with charitable corporations. The one I know about is quite dysfunctional….

    But what exactly about them makes for bad governance?

  142. Alex, that is the point. He could never have been Director of Football or Chairman with Fiszman there at that time. The assumption has always been that DDs actions started this ball rolling. If that was the case I would sort of agree with the DD detractors, but it is not. The ball was set rolling when Fiszman decided to ‘tidy’ up his shareholding. He started to sell. At the same time as the ITV shares becoming ‘available’. Now it has been suggested previously that he did that to lure DD into the open. But the fact is that he lost his majority shareholding by doing it. Why?

    CB, I don’t know what really happened I am simply interpreting the ‘facts’ in different way. And lets face it there are precious few actual facts available. My view is that DD and Fiszman fell out. Now it may be that that is because Fiszman discovered something about DD OR it may be that DD discovered something about Fiszman. I suggest it is the latter, others suggest it is the former. What I believe happened is that for some reason DD realised that he was about to be ousted. That explains his increasingly desperate actions from then on.

    I don’t buy the Wembley/Emirates issue by the way. It is very common for people to have different views, especially in the early stages of a strategic discussion. Doesn’t mean they are wedded to those views. What I will say though is that DD has always put the team first. If he thought that AW was not going to be supported in his endeavours then he might just have started to take risks to protect the football.

    There is someone that has bothered me for a while though and not just because my horse bears her name…almost. Lady Nina. They said she ratted to Fiszman about DD. Then she was ousted too.

  143. I don’t like the idea of a Trust run club eiither. But I do belive that supporters should have controlling shares to prevent total takeover.

  144. Dandan;

    So, Dein should get a free pass coz he wanted Wenger to be the manager?

    hardly see that as relevant anyways…

    And Graham was a top manager, who had to work miracles on a budget too! His teams were not as dour as revisionist history would have us believe either. Well, not for the most part.

  145. I think the evidence about whther Dein or Fiszman is are the negative influences on the club is there for all to see, namely the fact Wenger is still the manager.

    If Dein had been rail roaded and Fiszman/PHW were in it for themselves and were destabilising the club for personal gain, Wenger wouldve left and set up home with his bezzy mate, Dein…

  146. Well, the thing is that they attract people who are often ideological, or are ‘well meaning’, are ‘worthy’, those who claim to represent ‘the people’ or ’cause’ and, to be fair, some who are selfless and pretty good.

    There is usually a balance of views and approaches which tends to keep them in the middle ground of ambition and achievement. That is unless they are captured by the idealogues, and that way madness lies.

    Infighting can be intense and plots abound. I say it from experience that a strong CE is essential or things tend to drift. It will be the CE who makes a Trust successful, rarely the Board. This is true of other forms of governance of course, however, a Trust will rarely have the knowledge or skills at board level to recognise when a change s needed or crucially, how to achieve it.

    Don’t get me wrong, it can be a good way of running an enterprise but I have known more basket cases than exemplars.

  147. I am with you Frank and find it hard to believe that DD. Who lets face it had invested not just money, but also much of his life into the club he loved. Would throw it all away by playing politics,
    unless he believed he had no option.

    Who knows, lets hope truth will out someday.

  148. Consolsbob – If you look at any successful business there will be a strong character at the helm. I’m not suggesting someone who is close minded to others idea’s but someone who decides on a close of action and then pursues it to completion. Governance by committee rarely works, everyone spends to much time in meetings talking about how they will do something rather than getting on and getting it done.

  149. Dandan – Dein was paid a healthy salary by the club and remember the profit he made on his shares when he sold them. Personally I think Dein wanted control and saw an outside investor his best bet of getting this. He would be Chairman / CE while the owner would turn up on match day.

  150. I agree with your 5.20 Marc.

  151. Spike you are of course welcome to your opinion.

    But as one who stood andwatched from 1959 onwards. I can say with certainty that Grahams Arsenal were indeed and I like your word, dour.

    Unless of course the other side scored first, but that didn’t happen to often.

  152. Marc you may well be right and maybe oneday freedom of information will release the board minutes.

    Either way we have a new season coming up, so lets hope the Wenger magic, gives us more to talk about than club politics.

  153. Spike, AW asked DD if he wanted him to resign, and DD replied that he should not resign. The fact that AW is still there and they are still close friends has long been one of the reasons for the position I have taken… since it happened.

  154. To my mind we have been witnesses to a great many manoeuvrings of a Machiavellian nature within the boardroom structure of Arsenal FC. Ultimately the differences between the individual players in this game and their actions isn’t one of morality, ethics, integrity or even their intentions for the future of the club. The main differences between these individuals (to my mind at least) is one of competence in said Machiavellian environment, and the power the within that same structure to enact those intentions out.

    What I’m trying to say is that all of the players in this game are a bunch of snakes. What differentiates them is merely size and viciousness.

    Ultimately I know very little about this entire affair, (not many people seem to know anything too much) and there are people over here that seem to be better informed than I am about the history of some of the goings on in the boardroom (Frank). But from what little I have read I believe that they are all cut from the same cloth.

    All of these people are fantastically rich and have a number of other financial interests other than Arsenal FC. I can’t see very many people who can get to that sort of a stage in development of their personal finances without being very competent a such power games. I realise that that is very cynical but it’s just the way that I view the business world. And make no mistake this is all about business.

    Personally I feel that I can’t really (completely) trust any of those individuals as far as the future of the club goes. So the only real thing that I can hope for is for some sort of stalemate to develop between these guys, to maintain status quo. And then hopefully the bubble that surrounds the financial aspect of the football world will burst (with Manu, Lpool and Real victims of the explosion) discouraging any further aggressive manoeuvrings.

    I don’t think it’s going to work out that way though. There’s alot of money at stake (incentive) and many people with considerable amount of money (options to secure that incentive) for it to work out like that way.

    Us fans are left to watch and see what happens. It’s all a bit sh!ty to honest.

  155. I love this thread; I’ve learnt so much. Without any inside knowledge, obviously, from time to time I have alluded to the millionaires/billionaires in fighting for control of AFC. I suspect we are pretty close to the end game and that either Kroenke or Usmanov are going to end up in control of the club. Ideally we the fans are hoping for dispersed ownership so one faction or other is not in total control of the club but in truth we are entirely powerless because of the way professional football clubs are owned and operated in England etc.

    My recommendation for some weeks now is there needs to be systemic reforms to club ownership by the FA to prevent clubs falling under monopoly ownership and the attendant lack of influence by small shareholders and supporters. The Bundesliga model is a good start as it offers safeguards against overspending by the irresponsible and profligate which eventually bankrupts the entir League. (If in doubt read the sorry tale of Newcastle in todays Mirror – they still have a payroll of 74 million.) I doubt the FA, which is comprised of the very owners who are currently destroying the League will do anything towards this end unless fans of English football unite and find some leverage.

    PS: I agree totally with Consols. As a former chairman of the Board of a very significant charity in my neck of the woods, the Trust model is no guarantee against irresponsible, self-centered directors. The CEO is the key actor and they too are a mixed bag. Now back to anonymity.

  156. You don’t know what revisionist means, do you Spike?

  157. Holy crap I didn’t realise how long that was!!!! Sorry guys!

  158. Frank;

    Of course, I wouldnt expect Wenger to leave coz his friend has, it just doesnt happen. BUT, if the people left at the club were screwing us, the club, Wenger, etc, he wouldnt still be there, in my opinion.

    I was shocked when Dein was ousted, I always had a lot of time for him, while PHW always seemed a bit of an embarassment in terms of public announcements (why does he always do things via the Daily Star FFS???) In an ideal world, I would have liked him to still be on board, but he basically wrecked all that, firstly by jumpin into bed with Stanley, then, when that went tits up, he top n tailed with the Uzbek slimeball…

  159. Polizi;

    Doesnt it mean re-writing history?

  160. Or are you referring to the Nazi sympathiser/Holocaust deniers ting?

  161. There have been a lot of good posts about the boardroom shenanigans, and yours, Serk, was one of them. It’s just a shame the subject itself is not more interesting.

    If the directors at Arsenal were really Machiavellian, one of them would be found cut in half and left in Trafalgar Square.

  162. OK Spike. My only point really is that if you are looking for smoking gun, even if it is only a starting pistol, I suspect that Fiszman is holding it. But I agree with Serk I would not trust any of the board members as far as I could throw them and that includes young Mr Grace and of course his mate Sir Fish and Chips Smokestack Lightning, who I suspect between them schmoozed Kroenke. Whipped him down to Greenwich Palace on a boat, showed him the painted ceilings and told him their families used to own it. Some Americans can be quite impressed by that sort of thing, I have seen it first hand, and I chose my words very carefully so as not to offend. The American that is, I don’t wish to offend Americans. The English up-classes can go fuck themselves…which they mainly do.

  163. It’s all speculation since none of us are on the inside to know the real motivations for what has happened at board level. But Serk da Turk’s take on things is the closest to my own view of the current power plays going on at AFC.

  164. Revisionist;

    attempting to reevaluate and restate the past based on newly acquired standards.
    ——————————————————–

    Well, blow me! I did kinda have a clue what the word meant afterall…

  165. “Revisionist” is misused a lot, but not as much as “reactionary”.

    Anyway, back to trying to understand this whole situation. I don’t find it boring, it’s just that a lot of the jargon – like many other things – goes right over my head.

  166. Serk – Spot on. I agree. Wouldn’t trust any of those Directors within an inch of my life.

  167. Frank;

    Your references to the upper classes kinda goes with my take on em too.

    As for the board. I am again, in agreement, it is just that, they are the ones holding the keys to the club, so, we may not trust em, but we have to hope/believe they have the best interests of the club at heart.

    I have not liked the way AW has basically been left in the lurch, at times, after comments about how much money there is, he has had to go along with that and at the same time, be accused of refusing to spend…

    The guy is a diplomat extraordinaire!

  168. Oh dear what the fuck is an English up-class?

  169. Oneofus;

    That is such a reactionary way to behave.

  170. The point is, Spike, that you are the revisionist.

  171. I think that is it, Spike. the manager and players are the poeple I stick to, which is why the people that dis them such a rough ride. Or at least I try to.

    When you consider the burden that AW has to carry and his unrelenting faith in his players…. The least any of us can do is to cheer them at the top of our voices and sing his praises from the rooftops.

    …..Arsenal….

  172. OOU – As fans, it is somewhat cathartic to know that the future of our beloved club is outside of our hands, no matter how we huff and puff on this blog. .
    One constant element however is Arsene Wenger. We are so blessed to have such a genius at the helm of the football team. Interestingly all the big players are obligated to show “loyalty” to him especially since he has made them oh so rich, but also because he is critical to maintaining fan support in the midst of all their conniving and machinations. I would like to be his priest (Is he catholic?) just to hear his confessions. LOL.

  173. .bloody fucking bastard keyfucking board thing…fucker…

  174. Polizi;

    Oh, I have been re-writing history? When I said GG’s Arsenal teams were not all dull, dour and boring you mean?

  175. Hahahaha at Poliziano 5:50.

    I think you might be right about that. It would at least make it a lot more entertaining seeing all the board members get shot of one another in interesting and cruel ways. With any luck it would work out like a Greek tragedy and nobody would end up with the prize! A man can dream. A man can dream….

  176. Of all the board members, hierachy at the club, Dein was the one closest to the fans and manager, obviously. The fact he has been forced out has left a big hole, hopefully Gazidis can try and plug it!

    And have a real problem with Dein’s choice of (oh so fucking) fat cat…

  177. Frank @ 6:06.

    My sentiments exactly.

  178. Turks often show an interest in Greek tragedies, Serk, don’t they? And vice versa of course.

  179. But, thanks to Dein and Dein alone, we now have a scenario where the club is constantly under attack from the PR machine and most probably hacks, employed by the Uzbeki gangster, the rights issue, the constant drip drip of the media saying how fucked we are, how there is no money, etc….

    This because dein sold his shares in his beloved Arsenal….

    Unforgivable, IMO.

  180. My fear is that long-term, the only thing that would prevent us from being taken over, or having ownership consolidated is the non-profit model

  181. Yes Frank, unfortunately that is the case. The really sad fact is that we as two groups of people we are probably more similar to one another than we are to anybody else. Unfortunately though most people tend to see the differences than the similarities. It is an unfortunate aspect of human culture the world over.

  182. .

  183. A revisionist historian writes against the account of history given by preceding generations. The phrase “re-writing history” is perhaps too negative. Revisionists are not necessarily wrong, or necessarily right.

  184. Most clubs seem to follow the non-profit model, Ole.

  185. LOL Poliziano…..Ok I mean the not-for-profit model.

  186. Ole Gunner I don’t think that an appropriate model for what we fans want actually exists (to my knowledge anyway). We want the club to be stable while at the same time remaining competitive on and off the field.

    I think that the only real option is for fans to control a significant percentage of the club so that a hostile takeover is impossible. Then the remaining shareholders can be given rights to collect the dividends from their shares. That way the club can only be viewed as a long term investment, with some short term benefits.

    That’s why it’s so important to back groups like the AST. But again, that’s a million miles away from being feasible.

  187. Very illuminating discussion today.

    If only we had Dan Brown to investigate our boardroom shenanigans. He could link it down to some freemason cult pulling the strings.

  188. C-bob,

    You mentioned that people involved with charities tend to be over-ideological. After thinking about it over pot roast and some nero d’avola, I wanted to ask, wouldn’t that be good for the Arsenal. If we had a bunch of Arsenal mad people at board level?

    Serk da Turk,

    The Barca model without the demagogic elections would be fine. Honestly. If fans controlled the club, and ownership were dispersed that’d be superb. But next best is not-for-profit.

  189. Being Arsenal mad doesn’t, unfortunately, necessarily mean that they aren’t stupid. Ole.

    Oh, and only some are ideological, many are just those drawn to petty politics.

    Come on You Reds!

  190. What if the fans who controlled the club were doomers, OG?

  191. Also, given that he is a shareholder and the writer of one of the more ‘populist’ Arsenal blogs, wouldn’t our friend Geoff be a likely candidate for an Arsenal Trust Board of directors?

    What do you reckon, him or Frank?

  192. Ole Gunner – You have highlighted the point I was trying to make earlier. What sounds good on paper can very easily go tits up in real life. The model you encourage would soon descend into the presidential type elections at RM or Barca with each candidate trying to win votes by making promises that are either impossible, impractical, sheer lies or self destructive.

  193. Frank – I seem to be getting very left wing vibes off of some of your posts. Why should a persons wealth or background make them a poor choice for a role?

  194. whats wrong with left wing vibes?

  195. The choice should be made on merit, Marc. At the moment people with wealth and/or who are privileged at birth have disproportionate access to power or at least decision making. I would simply redress the balance by reducing their numbers a little.

  196. Fiszman and Dein are both Jewish. Dan Brown, so far as I know, is only a leading expert on Christianity and its symbols.

  197. Leading story-teller is probably a more accurate description, PZ. Even then only if the number of books sold is the measure.

  198. Not only that, Pz. He also writes mind numbingly boring ‘novels’.

  199. Agree with CB

  200. I agree with CB

  201. Oh that was clever, how did it do that? The comments section seems to record my thoughts before I write them. Sex.

  202. Is that true of the Labour Party as well, Frank?

    Some of the biggest tossers I have had the misfortune to have to deal with at national and local level have been those ‘representatives’ of the people.

  203. I’ve never read one of his books. Never will. I did, however, watch the film of The Da Vince Code. Oh dear.

    Still, Audrey Tautou is a good-looking girl.

  204. Well if doomers took control at Arsenal we’ll be well and truly doomed. I concede defeat…..

  205. concede defeat but only for now….

  206. Oh rich and privileged people certainly do not have a monopoly on tosser..ishosityness, CB. As we see on here on a daily basis.

  207. Ateeb – “whats wrong with left wing vibes” Nothing as long as those with them are locked up where they can’t hurt anyone.

  208. Vinci, I mean.

  209. Please, Marc. No politics and no religion.

  210. Audrey tautou is a good looking girl but not whatshername reptillian looking woman, Eva Green? Come on!!!

    As for Dan Brown, he was quite popular. I was young than, made the mistake. Read his book, or whatever you want to call that. Still regret it to this very day. Had to read a good fantasy book Tolkein’s LOTR 5 times, to get the da vinci crap out of system.

  211. Poliziano – I read the “The Da Vince Code” and enjoyed it as a piece of not to be taken in any way seriously, non thinking fiction. The problem was that it got elevated to a work of fact.

  212. You misunderstood me, Ateeb. Eva Green is exceptionally beautiful – more beautiful than Audrey Tautou, but less attractive, in my opinion.

    I don’t think any “model” can guarantee the success of Arsenal.

  213. Poliziano – Good point. Discussing politics should not be allowed. Bit like the Mason’s.

  214. Marc,

    “Nothing as long as those with them are locked up where they can’t hurt anyone”

    You mean in hunger, poverty and disease?

  215. To understand the problem we face with making people see sense you only have to see the number of Dan Brown books in the bookshops and the best sellers lists.

    The Da Vinci Code was a truly awful book, yet the media raved about it. Does that tell us anything about what makes their bells ring? Are there any parallels for us as Arsenal fans?

    Who brought up this tosser Brown anyway?

  216. Okay Marc, Ateeb,

    You’ve both bent the rules a little. Now everything’s equal.

  217. Poliziano – I’ve already quit. Seriously though is the “no politics” a genuine rule?

  218. haha Cb, spot on. You only have to notice the blockbuster movies and the best seller writers to understand what sort of people we’re dealing with. Some of the movies are so pathetic, I suspect if the people making them had the slighest hint of intelligence, they won’t be able to sit through their own movies.

  219. It’s only my rule, Marc. I dislike the arguments that will ensue. I want all arguments on here to be between supporters and anti-supporters.

  220. Marc,

    Its not a genuine rule. It’s just that when the world is in economic recession again, and the poverty levels and the people going hungry have increase in billions over the last few decades, it’s not even a debate anymore, whether the right wing policies can work. So it is discouraged here, for that reason alone:)

  221. Poliziano – Agree wholeheartedly. There’s a time and a place for everything.

  222. Ateeb – I would be happy to continue a discussion with you on this subject, although obviously not on this site. If you are interested maybe Yogi could forward our emails addresses to each other.

  223. Don’t forget the isms though, PZ.

  224. The little I know about the leadership at Arsenal I have learnt from this blog. It seem clear to me that the current managers and share-holders have their defects, but the club iself is healthy. I would therefore be happy to keep faith with what we have at the moment. The demagogic model, the sugar-daddy model, and so on all carry risks.

  225. Solgooner suggested that to Alex Ice Cream, Marc.

  226. And we haven’t seen solgooner since…

  227. No, not that enthusiastic about it. There is nothing to debate upon on that subject. All you have to do is turn on the T.V channel, and notice as the imperial American empire spread it’s tentacles all over the world, to generate more profits and capitalise on uncapped resources. As it destroys whole nations in it’s quest for profits, backed by the military industrial complex and big corporations. Or if you’re lazy just some STATISTICS might convince you that capitalism isn’t the answer. They are as convincing as Denilson’s statistics. So no debate with you, on politics. Not a chance.

  228. ..or AIC.

  229. Poliziano – Just one comment on your previous post. We keep telling the anti Arsenal brigade to “fuck off”. Not really an argument, not that I’m with the tactic.

  230. and neither have we seen AIC……

  231. Ateeb – You sort of broke your own rule there. I disagree with some of what you say but this is not the site for such a discussion, I’ve got to go and hide in case AIC hunts me down.

  232. I knew those damned Americans were up to something.

  233. He may be in disguise.

  234. Are you not the young man who doesn’t want to get old Marc, or is that Matt?

    No offense, it is just that I get easily confused these days as my youngest grandaugther told me only this afternoon.

  235. You’re okay, Marc. Just don’t reveal your email address. With that information, people like AIC can locate you to within 1 metre.

  236. Ha! Still quicker than that whippersnapper Ateeb.

  237. Pz, What? Are they upto something new now? Tell me what u know, and I’d tell u what I know. Share e mail ids….this site might not be safe…..

  238. Consolsbob – No, it was me who said he didn’t want to get old. I just had the idea of living for ever, not being subject to death via ignorance.

  239. Consolsbob – Does 35 (coming up 36) still make me a young man?

  240. You should be careful where you make a comment. Some blogsites have been known to send people nasty emails, and some have published the email addresses of people they don’t like….and some have done worse…far worse…but that would be telling.

  241. 36 generally follows 35, Marc. Almost always.

  242. Not a chance, Marc. My grandchildren would see no difference between you and me. Both would be old duffers in their eyes.

    That is the only way to judge, you see. Test yourself in the eyes of the truly young.

  243. Frank – I was questioning what constitutes a young man. The coming up 36 was more to do with the fact I’m a lot closer to 36 than 35.

  244. Unless Fox news can convince you other wise.

  245. Consolsbob – I don’t like kid’s. According to the news they are super spreaders of swine flu!

  246. Ateeb – Was that directed at me?

  247. If you were closer to 36 than 35, Marc, you would be 36.

  248. Frank – No I would be almost 36.

  249. Marx,

    That was a response to Franks claim that “36 generally follows 35, Marc. Almost always.”

  250. Young people are super catchers of swine flu,and that includes 35 year olds. So that is one way of ansering your question, Marc. From the swine flu perspective you are young.I on the other hand am not as susceptible to swine flu as you, but I will probably be killed by straight forward, nothing fancy ordinary flu. Actually most infuenza epidemics start in chickens, sorry to say, CB.

  251. Ateeb – How long have Fox Nws been keeping track of basic numeracy?

  252. Marc, you would be 35. You can’t get closer to 35 than being 35.

  253. Frank – Nature seems to be looking for a new disease to wipe us out. I don’t think it (she) is fussy whether it stems from Chickens or Pigs.

  254. The scale we are using is faulty. But if you had said 35 and three quarters, which demonstrates that you are using a more sensiive scale, we would think that you were simple.

  255. Frank – Bloody hell. I get the feeling that you would continue this until I am 36.

  256. It’s going to stem from enviromental degradation that has been unleashed upon mother nature, by capitalist expansion.

  257. Nature is not only not female, she doesn’t exist, Marc.

  258. Shouldn’t be long if what you are saying is correct, Marc.

  259. Frank – More simple than you think I am now? Or just plain simple?

  260. The disease…….Marx.

  261. I don’t think you are simple at all, Marc.

  262. Frank – I can and will dismiss religion but nature has a pretty good track record, about 3.7 billion years at the last count. You are living dangerously if you dismiss it (her).

  263. From Twitter: Owen earns Ferguson £2000 as part of the Government’s scrappage scheme…

  264. Ateeb – Come on, I thought we’d agreed to no more politics.

    What you call Capitalist expansion I call uncontrolled Human population expansion.

    Can we please leave the politics out or follow my suggestion?

  265. Why don’t my posts appear..

  266. Frank – Thank you.

    Ole Gunner – Only two grand for that old model!

  267. Running Dog Capitalist Lackey the Fourth turned out to be a complete failure when we tried to race him, Ateeb…..

    We trained him up, as per the manual, and using a few tips given to me by a man in a pub. Thought he would do fine. Took him to a meeting at the Stow. He was very fast indeed, caught and ate the rabbit, ate part of the dogs in second and third places and fucked the dog in last place before we could get to him. I tried to extract stud fees from the owner of the last dog, but it turnes out it was male.

    Running Dog and I were chased out of the stadium after I suggested that the other dog was obviously a girlie dog. Running down the motorway with about four hundred men and dogs after us….luckily we got picked up by a Bulgarian lorry driver I know. She was just on the way back to Bulgaria from Yorkshire with a lorry load of tripe.

  268. Yes and so did Thomas Robert Malthus…..Go wiki it, and see where that leads you.

  269. Bloody hell!

  270. Ateeb – Again, who was that directed at?

  271. C’mon guys….let’s leave politics out….and religion…and the royal family

  272. To the one who believes that “What you call Capitalist expansion I call uncontrolled Human population expansion.”

    Thomas was claiming the same thing, in the 18th century. That is hundreads of years ago, and his theories were dismissed rightly so. He didn’t have any children, he was a bit fanatic, taking the overpopulation thing too seriously.

    “Malthus argued that population was held within resource limits by two types of checks: positive ones, which raised the death rate, and preventative ones, which lowered the birth rate. The positive checks included hunger, disease and war; the preventative checks, abortion, birth control, prostitution, postponement of marriage, and celibacy”

  273. Ole Gunner – I’m trying, Ateeb has either got to stop the sniping remarks or be willing to engage in a debate as I suggested earlier.

    It really pisses me off when people claim to be above an argument and then keep making snide remarks.

    If you’ve got something to say at least have the balls to back it up, that or shut up.

    Either way I’ll get by.

  274. ahh..that were his solutions to the overpopulation that I pasted.

    No more politics.

  275. Ateeb – Fucking hell – What do you call a population of 6 billion people?

  276. I deal with Doomers and right wing people in a similiar fashion. I’ve been very polite with you, and CB can back it up.

  277. Ateeb – What was the human population when “Thomas Robert Malthus” made his predictions?

    You should check out the fact that we are currently in the 6th mass extinction. The 5th wiped out the dinosaurs.

  278. I call it a population with 6 billion people, facing acute inequality. End of.

  279. You think dinosaurs got extinct because of over population?

    lol, that’s a new one.

  280. Ateeb – 6 billion facing inequality doesn’t change the fact that 6 billion is to many people, regardless of bank balance.

  281. Ateeb – No, the dinosaurs were wiped out through a combination of environmental factors plus a bloody great rock falling out of the sky. My point was we are facing the same level of destruction less the bloody great rock falling out of the sky.

  282. That should read ” same level of destruction despite the lack of a bloody great rock falling out of the sky”

  283. And since the enviromental factors to you seem uunavoidable, you’re ok with capitalism to continue, raping the earth of it’s resources? Without any measures being taken? And you really think the corporations are gonna give a F*** about enviromental degradation? It’s about profits, and only profits.

    The bloody great rock hasn’t been proven as a cause for their extinction.

    So 6 billion people are too many, so that’s justification for inequality to exist? “You can’t help them all, why help any of them at all than?”.

  284. There are signs, though, that the Great Satan will start using the green technologies that have been so successful in Russia and China.

  285. Only someone from the right could take a discussion and go back billions of years, and find dinosaurs as a reference point. Seriously. As I said initially, no point debating. Good night.

  286. @Frank

    A million apologies for replying late. I was offline. It was really an interesting match that was shown live. Enyimba triumphed.
    You can get details here
    http://www.kickoffnigeria.com

    South African website but its the Nigerian side.

  287. “Even the sun will not overstep its measure; else the Furies, ministers of justice, will find it out.”

    Nature overstepped its measure by producing conscious beings. Now those beings will destroy Nature. I can’t wait.

  288. Thanks, GfN. Looks like Enyimba won quite comfortably. Do they play in the Nigerian equivalent of Wembley? is there a national stadium?

    I was quite intrigued by one of the Sharks midfield players, Thankgod Amaefule. Some name that.

  289. Ateeb and Marc…you are great gooners. Like Ole has said…keep it that way. Save the differences for a different time and a different place.

  290. Great debate. To bring things back to the present, why doesn’t anyone suspect that the disagreement between Fizsman and Dein was exactly the disagreement we are seeing now with Usmanov? Dein wanted to bring in some new money to grow the club and compete with the Chelseas and ManUs of the world. Fizsman sees Wenger as a cash-cow and is very happy with the money he is making, win, lose or come fourth. He doesn’t want the risk of taking on new debts. The fans — and this is the problem with the RM or Barca model — want lots of new, expensive players, but fear anyone with the money to actually buy them.

  291. The past few season reviews are all under a fiver on hmv.com if anyone has gaps to fill.

  292. Everything is so simple in politics. One just decides whether to be left wing or right wing, and then one finds the appropriate opinions to go with the orientation one has chosen. No thought required!

    Football, by contrast, is so complicated. There are hundreds of teams one might support. Once one has chosen a team, one has to decide whether to be a regular supporter or a doomer. Even then, little is settled. The doomers might agree on which players to sell, but they differ on which players to buy. The regular supporters are split into Deinists and Fiszmanists. So many choices!

  293. Speak for yourself, California. I’m delighted with the players we’ve got.

  294. Deinists and Fiszmanists are of course exclusive to Arsenal, but I expect other clubs have similar divisions.

  295. Interesting site GfN. Methinks they could do without Mr.Sulmaan Ahmad. (He wrote the piece “Has Wenger Lost The Plot.) But then again the publishers of goal.com have been playing the same game as the English press; stories of doom and gloom about Arsenal always generate hits. That I guess is the price of going against the grain and being self-sufficient.

    When is the press going to wake up and realize that it is the big spenders with big debts who are most in trouble. Go check out the dire situation at Newcastle United. Manchester IOU and Liverpool Insolvent (thanks Tony Attwood) are barely better. I hope African football learn the lesson pretty soon GfN.

  296. Poliziano, with your sublime intelligence of course you are totally immune to the dangers of populism or the seductions of demagogues promising star signings… and good on you! But check out gunnerblog and you will know from whence i speak.

  297. Cali Gooner: Not so sure all the fans want lots of new expensive players..I find the real irony is that it was Dein who brought Kronke to the club and was fired in that process for doing so by Fizsman et al and now Fizsman has sold his shares to Kronke..!! (on paper at least..!)
    Of course he also brought Usmanov. And one would have to surmise that given Usmanovs past – that his motives are suspect. But the club seems to have alot of cash tied up in property development – which has impacted on its ability and flexibility to invest in established players.

    Pz:-I think Dein mean’t well and despite the fact that he went about things in the wrong way when he excluded the club, the fact that he and Wenger remain such good friends speaks alot about how Arsene see’s him, and thats good enough for me. In fact, as Fiszman has now sold to Kronke, in some way, it actually endorses Deins direction in some regard..!

  298. “The fans — and this is the problem with the RM or Barca model — want lots of new, expensive players, but fear anyone with the money to actually buy them.”

    I don’t know CG – I think the ones who want the expensive players don’t actually care how it is funded. It’s those of us who don’t feel we need expensive players who don’t want the money at any cost.

  299. I didn’t mean to speak ill of Dein. I know nothing about him, and have no opinion about him. I have merely observed that some support him, and some don’t.

  300. If we really needed a player, I’m sure money would be made available. I assume that was the point of claims in the past that such and such an amount of money was available to Wenger. Spending more one years, though, means spending less the next. At the moment, I believe we have plenty of players. Some people say we have too many in some positions.

  301. Pz:- and sorry, I certainly didn’t mean to represent that you did speak ill of dein.
    And your right – there’s no doubt that money is made available to buy. But buying quality at this level is not an easy task. Its obvious that Wenger has been trying to sign an experienced DCM since the Flam / diarra / Gilberto departure. He has tried to sign Alonso and of late Melo. Looks like we’ll get Matuidi – good prospect no doubt – but not the tallest. Unfortunately, the market is so inflated.

  302. ,

  303. Joe, ‘inflation’ is the problem. If Arsenal did make a bid for Melo, it was probably right at the beginning of the transfer window, but because he was playing in the Confederations Cup, there was not much we could do to move things forward. However, once he signed that extension at Fiorentina with the release fee of 25m Euro, he was never going to come to Arsenal. Arsene will never pay more than he thinks a player is worth. Just because others are paying inflated fees, doesn’t mean we should.

  304. Passenal -

    “Arsene will never pay more than he thinks a player is worth. Just because others are paying inflated fees, doesn’t mean we should.”

    100% right.

  305. Anyone else watching “Mississippi Burning”, bloody good film.

  306. No, I’m actually watching ATV – I probably won’t last the whole match but the home game against Blackburn is about to start.

  307. Tevez reportedly having City medical tomorrow
    http://www.footballnewshq.com/

    anyone think he could have done a good job for arsenal ?

    150k a week for him – how much is Fabregas on ?

  308. Ateeb – One last comment. I would like point out the fact that while we have, pretty obviously completely different points of view we have managed to argue without resorting to personal insults.

    If only the doomers could live with this.

    After all we should all at least be Gooners.

  309. Scott – No where near £150k a week. Closer to half of that.

    That’s why the “why did we let Flamini go” crowd are so deranged.

  310. Arsenal TV has gone offline. Is there any news about who will take up the TV rights?

  311. Scott, I think you answered your own question with the quoted weekly wage – no one at Arsenal earns that kind if money.

  312. It’s not offline Marc, I’m watching it now.

  313. Passenal – Sorry I didn’t mean the online TV but the satellite channel that was (formerly) carried by Shitanta.

  314. Not online Marc, I’m watching it on TV now – although Shitanta has gone, ATV is still going for the time being.

  315. Passenal – What are you watching it through? On Sky it’s channel 435. I’ve tried it and got told to go away.

  316. I’m on cable – Virgin Media and it still seems to be going strong

  317. We could have won this game 7 – 0 if Bendtner had his shooting boots on!

  318. Passenal – Ignore me. When I heard that Shitanta was going bust I canceled my subscription. I thought it would run till the end of the month but they are obviously trying to wind things up promptly.

  319. @Frank

    The equivalent of Wembley in Nigeria is the National Stadium in Lagos built in 1973 for the Africa Games. But, it rarely used because of poor maintenance. However, the main stadium now is the National Stadium in Abuja an all sitter 60,000 capacity built in 2003 also for the Africa Games. The are both owed by the Federal government.
    While, the Teslim Balogum Stadium which hosted the Fa Cup final is owed by the Lagos State government.

  320. Marc; over here in Ireland I can still get ATV on channel 435 as Setanta still broadcast here. Not to pleased that the pre season games are not on though.

  321. [...] Pre Season Sunday Round-Up Alisher Usmanov is not going to go quietly but in following a high risk strategy, he risks becoming a lame duck [...] [...]

  322. Cheers, GfN

  323. cARME ON U GARNERS!!!

  324. The Garner family have been close friends of mine for many years. You know them too, Max?

  325. The person who brought Dennis Bergkamp to the club was David Dein (not Bruce Rioch as many like to suggest). In football terms the loss of David Dein was a much bigger problem than the building of the new stadium. Arsene Wenger is a genius to have negotiated those two potentially fatal risks and come out with such a fantastic squad.

  326. David Dein made a bad mistake born out of sheer desperation when he brought in Usmanov. I doubt if Usmanov will gain control of the club, so in some ways it has been a wake up call to the remaining directors. However, Fiszman’s mistake in getting rid of David Dein was enormous. he made a monumental error which could have cost us dearly if AW had resigned. Thankfully DD advised him to stay.

  327. Frank,

    While DD was important to the club, his importance is not on the same scale as that of the building of Ashburton Grove. Gazidis in my opinion will prove a more than adequate replacement for Dein in the long term.

    Sure Gazidis is not the wheeler dealer and networker that Dein was for us in international forums like the G 14 and UEFA but his professional record is awesome and from all accounts so is his vision for the club.

    Now if he look at our move to the Grove. What was the replacement for this move. We could have been –
    a) Still at Highbury which would have led to long term economic stagnation and gradual decrease in our status as one of the leading clubs in Europe.
    b) Had a sharing arrangement at Wembley which the lesser discussed it is, the better.

    The move to Ashburton Grove is in my opinion the single biggest economic decision in the history of the club. People come and go, but this move is permanent and will secure our long term future.

  328. Alex,

    I agree. The new stadium is very important economically. Although I am not sure that our support will ever be the same again. I hope it is, and some supporters are working very hard to make it so.

    We could have moved to the new stadium with David Dein as Chairman and with AW as manager in perpetuity. That would have made us invincible. But the chance is gone now.

    I like Ivan Gazidis. He does not have the same flair as DD but all the signs are good. Perhaps DD would not have been able to operate as effectively in a ‘corprate’ environment, which is how I would describe the new era.

    For me the club is now AW and the players, I think that the in-stadium supporters are going to improve this season. I dearly hope so.

  329. Corporate. My little fingers are longer than the others. We will see if it is a beneficial mutation in several generations time. Anyway it gets in the way of typing so I look forward to the day when all communication is oral.

  330. Its sad to hear John Hartson the former Arsenal striker has been diagnosed with brain and testicular cancer. Lets hope he beat it and recover

  331. Alex, I think building a squad and building a stadium are two distinct capabilities but are highly complementary. The stadium brings in the revenue, the squad fills the stadium. I think Dein was really a unique talent in terms of building the squad.

  332. My proposition is that at Highbury we were still a supporters club. David Dein thrived in that environment. The move to the new stadium moved us into the corporate era and we have become a ‘customers’ club, at least temporarily. David Dein would probably not survive in this environment, indeed he didn’t. Whether the corporatisation was intended by Fiszman or whether it is an inevitable consequence of building a new stadium I guess we will never know. David Dein though was its first casualty. He deserves more respect than he gets.

    ‘But the king is dead, long live the king’ as they say. My support is full square behind AW, and Ivan Gazidis gets a bit too. ‘Footballistically’ if he delivers what DD delivered I will be a happy supporter.

  333. Make sure you check your nuts everybody

  334. “For me the club is now AW and the players.”

    That’s my opinion. When it comes to boardrooms, portfolios, and the like, I’m well out of my depth; and it’s all too far removed from football.

  335. California Gooner,

    The more that we live in the past the more we will stagnate. The unfortunate reality today is that the only way Dein will return to the club is if Usmanov comes to power.

    Whatever Dein brings to the table it will not be worth it in that scenario. He has made a wrong choice by throwing his lot with the Uzbek and the club is more important than Dein, I hope.

    Onwards and upwards.

  336. Passnal, Fun, Maria – take note of 1LC.

  337. Dein was good for the club but still a rattlesnake. His son urging Henry to leave annoys me as well. How DD would let that happen I dont know.

  338. You ought not to blame a man for the actions of his son.

  339. He must of been in on it somehow, he would of been the one who opened all of the doors into football for his son. I can only think that he was a bitter man, who doesn’t want Arsenal to succeed without him

  340. must of been in on it somehow


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