Posted by: Yogi's Warrior | September 4, 2008

THROUGH THE ROUND WINDOW

International weeks are notoriously dull from the club’s perspective; the only real interest is whether or not this or that player has crocked themselves on duty. Just for once it would nice if they could all return sufficiently fit and healthy.

Arsene explained his decision not to spend during the closing days of the transfer window,

We have the squad to cope with every problem we face during the season. I really think it’s more interesting for us to look at our strengths and at our quality rather than looking outside. I know that makes headlines but it doesn’t win games

It is that which was touched on here in recent days in both the post and comments. The transfer window is the only time of a season when speculation about players converts into (in)action. Media comparisons comparing who spent what, whilst fuelling debate, are ultimately meaningless for they ignore the starting points. For example, it is not surprising that Tottenham spent considerably more than Arsenal. An eleventh place finish compared to third (and four points behind the Champions) suggests that more work has to be done on their squad than on the one under Wenger’s command. Under those circumstances, Arsene is right to be confident about the players he has.

With youth on their side, it is a squad that could be at the top for a long time. There are obvious dangers to this as well. Firstly, youth turns to maturity quickly and the absence of trophies can put players into a state of flux, torn between loyalty and the desire to win things. That is not true of all and cannot be specifically pointed toward one or two individuals. Some are motivated by money and a pay structure that is more egalitarian than most also has drawbacks, as Adebayor tried to prove this summer.

Speculation is the most distasteful part of this three month spell (and in the lead up to January’s window also). As Wenger himself noted,

It has been a transfer window largely of talk

It has and agents have been the source of this. It is their job to do so, talking up their clients to get a better deal from existing employers, enticing more money on the basis of the (sometimes un) substantiated interest of others. Anyone who has suffered the self-inflicted misfortune to read Ashley Cole’s book will have seen the mentality at work. The crucial thing now is that the window is over; there is little to be gained by picking holes in the lack of Arsene’s activity, save for self-inflation of egos. Now it is time to refocus on supporting the team in their efforts to win silverware. That does not preclude criticism of poor or under-performance but at least we should make such comments constructively.

There is a tangible sense of disappointment, brought about not least by Arsene’s own comments, that the midfield has not been strengthened. It would be interesting to know exactly what has happened to change his mind in the space of a few weeks; was it price, was it availability? Whatever the case may have been, the answers fill in a few gaps in our knowledge. I do not expect to find out why, Wenger has no obligation to explain every move to us. It would have a positive effect, I think, to be told this and be a good PR exercise. More likely, we will have to wait until his book comes out in however many years time.

’til Tomorrow.


Responses

  1. playa

  2. YOGI the principal problem is the managers PR, it never stops, why doesnt he wait till we have beaten
    Blackburn, Kiev and Bolton? instead of telling us how great a passer Ebuoe is.

  3. I am tired of hoping i need one more body in dat midffeild maybe appiah

  4. That’s not a new quote. That’s from 2-3 weeks ago.

  5. YW agree with you by and large.

    AW and PR have been spoken before by others. Sometimes less is more. IF he had said less he would not need to explain himself now.

    Up The Arse!!!!

  6. This Faith he has shown in these players can only serve to give them confidence which confidence will transform to whole hearted performances to convince the manager not to buy in the January window..hopefully this will happen alongside very positive results

  7. I think arsene is becoming a pain in the head. May be becos he does not pay his hard earned income to watch matches dat is why he is not disapointed. We have beating chealsea once in the last 3 to 4 seasons. We couldn’t even beat both liverpool and manu in all competition last season when we had flamini and helb. What pisses me off is that he refuses to spend money that does not belongs 2 him. Pls can someone remind arsend its been 4 trophyless season. Infact i hate u arsene. If u are tired of arsenal why dont u carry ur youth policy some where else. Back here in nigeria many fans are decamping 2 other clubs and i am not happy about it. Pls wenger i luv arsenal with my life so pls dont let her days of glory, and trophies die.

  8. Wenger has too much power. There should’ve been someone to tell him to stop living in his little accountantcy dream world where prizes are given out to the club that earns a profit 3 years running.

    It is obvious he baulked at the prices quoted for Alonso and barry. Of course they are over priced, but when they are the ONLY 2 serious and viable options you PAY THE GOING RATE!

    You do not , just not bother and pretend that the squad is strong enough when it so patently isn’t. If you have no shoes and see a pair that you think are slightly too expensive, do you walk around in bare feet or do you pay that little extra? (shite analogy, but so what!)

    This is where a strong number 2/director of football/anyone else should have come in and explained that this is a gamble not worth taking that it was a dereliction of duty and to tell him to quit coming out with ludicrous statements like; “when you buy a 27 year old player, you get no return.”

    We can cope with any eventuality this season?

    Erm, basically we are praying that Song can come in and be the defensive midfielder that is soooo blatantly lacking in our squad.

    Eboue? F**k off!

  9. Tron,

    It’s called the real world. In the real world prizes (survival, success, security) is given to the club that has good strategy and is financially sound.

    Jude,

    Folks like you can’t decamp fast enough. You’re not real fans anyways. I just want all the plastic fans gone. Go support Man City. That’s the new fad innit?

  10. I’m so tired of plastics.

  11. Oh dear oh dear oh dear

  12. Arsene probably tried to buy someone but it didn’t happen. Many other deals at other clubs also fell through and so you have consider Arsene’s early comments that his main priority was to keep the team together.
    His priorites were achieved with the exception of Flamini and with addition of Nasri, Hleb loss is not a problem. Adebayor could have left which would have been a big loss as he adds a different dimension to our game, but we managed to keep him.
    A holding midfield player is necessary for physical away games but Arsene can use a 5 man midfield if he needs to for those type of games and maybe for our top 4 home home games.
    At the end of the day if we get a bit of luck with injuries we could easily compete and maybe improve on last years finish.
    No need to be too disappointed at this stage of the season, lets get behind our team and think positive.

  13. Thanks Ole Gunner!

    Since Arsene is such a jerk, you guys should just support another team, if its that bad.

    We only played in the CL final, have stayed in the top 4 and were 4 points off the title last year with our players improving but what the hell has Arsene done for us. We would rather talk about what he hasnt done (DM). You say “he said he would buy”, yes but he also said he was looking for the right player and if that wasnt available then he wouldnt buy.

    I really dont care about why he didnt buy and all the PR foolishness because if we got behind the team properly this wouldnt matter. Arsene covered himself to me but we didnt get what we want so we have to dis the man.

    God Bless!!!

  14. Im sick of plastics as well.

    There ruining the enviroment and destroying this beautifull blue planet

  15. I agree with Paul N

  16. No Frank, You agree with me

  17. Oh good. The mindless Eboue haters are back.

    TopGunPires
    Eboue’s Defence Lawyer

  18. Imagine ADUG had bought Arsenal instead of Man City, how would Wenger react? How would the real Arsenal fan react?

    We would then have more money than we ever had to buy the world’s best players. Wenger would have an obscenely lucrative contract that even if he were to be sacked in 9 months time, he could afford to retire in the Bahamas(?)

    I can honestly say that I would stop supporting Arsenal because this new Arsenal would be a complete antithesis of the old Arsenal and one that I could not bring myself to identify with. And it has nothing to do with sour grapes.

  19. Can’t agree with you more Paul- ‘what has Arsene ever done for us?’ He hasn’t built straight roads and aqueducts. No, he’s established Arsenal’s reputation globally as one of the top two or three teams that play the best football and that’s WITHOUT splashing cash.

    Some would say, who cares about the way we play football, we must splash the cash we may or may not have to win. Let’s keep up with the Sheikh Jones and Jonesavichs.

    I say if you don’t like the way Arsenal are behaving then maybe you should support some other more ‘appropriate’ team.

    I for one will continue to support my team through thick and thin like I have done for 37 years. I don’t always understand Wenger’s decisions but he gets so much right. Anybody calling for his head is misguided, puerile or simply stupid.

    Come on you Reds

  20. I agree with Han Solo

    There is no all-powerfull force that controls everything

  21. WHEN ARSENE TOOK OVER, PEOPLE MOANED THAT OUR BACK FOUR WAS TOO OLD AND THAT HE DIDNT GIVE THE KIDS A CHANCE, HE WAS RIGHT TO STICK WITH ADAMS AND CO BECAUSE THEY WERE GREAT, AND THE KIDS WERE NOT.
    NOW THE MOANING GOES ON, WE DONT NEED KIDS, WE NEED OLDER HEADS. SURELY WE HAVE BOTH, ADE , ROBIN, CESC, EBOUE, SAGNA, AND CLICHY ARE ALL YOUNG WITH BAGS OF EXPERIANCE, ARE BROUGHT UP THE ARSENAL WAY.
    WE COULD HAVE SPENT MILLIONS, WOULD IT HAVE WON US ANYTHING? WOULD IT HAVE STOPPED SONG, VELA, ETC FROM DEVELOPING?
    LETS HAVE FAITH, LETS BELIEVE, THE GOOD TIMES WILL RETURN

  22. Martin,

    Shhhhhhhhhhh…Stop shouting dude, you’ll wake the kids up

  23. Eboue certainly doesn’t warrant the hatred this season. He’s been one of our best players so far. Sod the end product; he’ll do damage to defences all season if he continues to run at them like he did on Saturday.

    And I just realised that “Big Al” is mighty close to “Bi Gal”. Wow, my subconscious is a genius.

    Kidding!

  24. Wats all this talk of been in third or fourth positions and if i may ask are they any trophies 4 this positions. Why did we let flamini go when we(arsene) knew he had no replacement. Imagine a club as big as arsenal relying on unestablished DM players like eboue and denilson ha ha ha ha……. I think i quite agree with david dein arsenal needs to be sold to usmanov or risk slipping out of the so called BIG 4. Since most are satisfied of being among the big 4 while other (big 3) are busy winning trophies.

  25. OK, now I know you’re crazy.

  26. I’ll get behind the team, as I always have been.
    I’ll be more than happy to see the backs of so-called fans who advocate “market value of player x&y” and are calling for AW’s head.
    Please go and cheer for Man Arab.
    Oh quick! There is a queue building up from eastlands to UAE!

  27. Hey Jude, I know what your saying Dude.

    We dont need Usamov though, All we need is for the genius Wenger to stop being such a fricken tight Arse, and spend Twenty Mill every season. Less then portsmouth do. Thats all thats needed.

  28. The Budgie is Back by popular demand.

    Ole Gooner

    Why when someone gives an opinion different from yours do you call them plastic fans.I have been going to Arsenal since 1968. I have been a season ticket holder since 1987.Am i a plastic fan?

    Last season we lost the title because the squad was not strong enough for the title run in.So i honestlybelieve Wenger would learn the lessons and strengthen the squad.But we are weaker.

    Wenger is our greatest manager and has given us some fantastic moments.But when he is wrong lets admit it dont bury our heads in the sand

    Wenger was wrong to keep Gallas as captain,Wrong not to purchase a commanding CH and Wrong not to buy a defensive midfielder.

    Dont dare call fans who are telling the truth plastic fans

  29. Its no disrespect to Wenger to disagree with him.

    And also, Man who walk through Airport doorway sideways is going to Bangkok

  30. Wenger said he would buy but maybe in these games he saw something that he liked in Denilson and Song and that maybe gave him some faith in these players..he sees them every day and who is the better judge..us who see them on match day or him who sees them during training go over some plays….i have faith in Wenger and if this the path he has chosen so be it..thats what they call managing people he gets to have his policies and he gets to effect and all u people going on and on well he just effected what he thought was right

  31. We lost the title for a lot of reasons. But the main explanation is injuries. It’s been said before but it’s true. Transfer our injuries to any other big 4 team and you’re looking at a mediocre side. The fact we still finished 4 points behind the winners is actually testament to our “strength in depth” – whatever that expression actually means.

    Quite why these injuries keep cropping up is another matter, mind.

  32. birdkamp, But Mr Wenger knows, as we all secretly do, that Van Persie and Rocisky will always be sick notes, always

  33. Olegunner u think u know all about asernal let me ask u wat is ur fan identity no.

  34. Jude,

    Mine is fan Identity Number 01 baby

  35. Jude,

    Whats your Lottery numbers for this Saturday?

  36. Arse21,

    Riddle me this:

    Hasn’t Rosicky’s long-term problem been identified and rectified with surgery?

    Weren’t RvP’s injuries actually aggravated by Wenger and his haste in bringing him back last season?

    A bit more patience and van Persie would have played a lot more than he did last season.

    I think you’re being extremely pessimistic, but don’t worry, you’re in good company.

  37. birdkamp,

    Pessimistic, Schmesimistic, I’m being Realistic Baby.

    I’m saying all this with a smile on face, I’ll always keep going no matter what, I love football one way or the other.

    I just happen to believe that Mr Wenger makes life impossibly hard for himself when he doesn’t have to…………………………baby

  38. Oleguner just 2 set d record straight there will be no match this saturday

  39. Is it a half-term alreay?

  40. Budgie,

    Less of the high and mighty, I’ve been a fan for this long, I’ve had a season ticket for this long blah blah blah.

    There are so many people like this at the Emirates these days and all they do is b!tch and moan and whine when really they’ve been fans long enough to have seen an awful lot worse than what is currently on offer.

    So Wenger doesnt do everything you think he should, that’s life. You cant do anything about it apart from come on here and tell me people how it is because you’ve been a fan for X years.

    Your opinion is just that, like everybody elses here.

  41. well said topgunpires

  42. I honestly believe that Wenger has made things more difficult for himself by raising supporters’ hopes by saying that he would strengthen and then not doing so. We all know that transfers can be unpredictable, Wenger more than anyone, so he should not stoke up the flames before any deals are done.

    Most people, even AW, said that we could do with at least another player but for whatever reason this player has not arrived and the window is shut so let’s move on.

    Let’s see how the season goes before writing off our chances completely. What’s the point of just giving up? If the squad is found out to our cost then Wenger will be vilified and there may be some justification for this.

    This is Wenger’s biggest gamble and now more than ever he will be judged on results. If we are not successful this season I fear that this summer of discontent will be nothing compared to next summer.

    If we are successful then this will be Wenger’s greatest triumph.

    As Vieira said “the truth is on the pitch” and we’ll find out one way or another.

  43. Arsene didn’t buy anyone because there was no French player of substance available. If any
    good- enough French player had been available, he would have brought him to the Emirates. He likes buying his countrymen and African French ahead of other nationals. The dressing room could sound very alien if you were a Theo Walcott dressing up or undressing. Strange tongues flying all around you, scared to be swallowed up.

  44. @Howard

    your old self is back!
    How very racist of you, although that’s nothing new.

  45. Its always amusing when supposedly long term season ticket holders get all pessimistic about the team after all of 3 league games in the season.

    So PSB, how much have your expectations about AFC risen over the last decade or so since Wenger took charge? In a collosal manner am sure? Now you hold the person who raised your expecations responsible for all the ‘ills’ of the club? Lets take stock midway into the season shall we.

    Jude, do you think Usmanov who asked for a dividend from the club merely months after he bought his shares pump Abromovich/ Arab style money into the club without extracting his pound of flesh? For all you know he’ll saddle the club with all the money it took him to buy the club!

    Let me guess, do you get all your premier league news back in Nigeria from the revered Daily Mail?

  46. Alex,

    Judging by his presence here I’d suggest Jude gets his info from all over the place just like the rest of us. I’ve met many fans in Africa who go to extraordinary lengths to follow the EPL.

    However on Usmanov you are100% spot on. The man is a cretin who looks at Arsenal as an investment vehicle and a way to raise his profile, nothing more.

    Jude I can send you Craig Murray’s (former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan) article on Usmanov if you give me your email address. You wont be able to find it on the net becase that nice man Mr Usmanov went to ridiculous lengths to shut it down.

  47. TopGunPires,

    Whilst not being a fan of Usmanov you presumably know that Craig Murray is a failed diplomat and anarrogant self publicist with an interesting agenda. His book on Uzbekistan (an interesting read) is principally about his affair with a young woman. Interestingly the Usmanov named in the book is not Alisher Usmanov. The emergence of Alisher Usmanov as an Arsenal shareholder through Red and White Holdings provided Murray with an excellent opportunity to publicise himself and to increase sales of his book. Whilst Usmanov is accused of being a thug, Murray also surrounds himself with a small ban of political thugs with a primary objective of rubbishing anyone who doubts Murrays version of the ‘truth’. What to believe these days??

  48. Howard

    I would think Arsene didn’t buy because there were no players of substance, period.

    This talk of Barry, Alonso etc – do you think Barry is substantially better than that which we already have? I don’t know frankly, but I know he wasn’t 18 million quid better.

    How about this Swiss fella, or player x and player y? Since we know even less about them, as its impossible to watch that much possible we can’t really draw a conclusion.

    So yes, I wish we bought another body but our season is going to rest on an awful lot more than the contribution of one player whom we don’t even know. Naturally, the same point applies to the fallacious argument that we failed to win the title last season due to our failure to bring in a player whose identity we don’t even know.

    Sol

    You really have a bee in your bonnet about this PR thing, but what do you want Wenger to do – not answer questions at the press conferences he is obliged to give? Not say anything at all? What do you think they would put on the website? Or the TV channel?

    If there is one thing I think we can agree on about Wenger it is his total integrity – and I think this is what we see in press conferences, he says what he is thinking or feeling at the time. He, being human, is presumably prone to changing his opinion on occasion.

  49. Frank

    Murray is not a failed diplomat.

    If you mean he was the ambassador to Uzbekistan and resigned because of his disgust at the regime and the British governments turning of a blind eye to its atrocities for political reasons – you would be correct.

    It is all well documented in many places other than Murray’s website.

  50. Frank,

    Craig Murray is not my sole source of information on Usmanov, but the only one I am at liberty to disclose.

    Murray for sure has his own agenda but his observations on Usmanov are on the whole accurate. And seeing as nobody else is allowed to write anything remotely critical of Usmanov we’ll have to settle for that.

    Besides all this, as previously stated, he has repeatedly stated his interest in Arsenal is purely an investment opportunity and that he expects a dividend are a few months of being a shareholder.

  51. Joseph K,

    I mean it was reported that Craig Murray was sacked from his position because of his alcoholism and debauched behaviour. His version is the one on his website.

  52. TopGunPires,

    How do you know Craig Murray’s description of Usmanov is correct? (Lord) David Owen has a different version.

  53. Does any think that there is enough room for more than 1 Sugardaddy who is only interested in chucking money into a club. Only 1 team can win a trophy.

    Will Abramovich lose interest if there is a bigger stick in the playground.

    Investors who are looking for a profit will probably be able to make money but at what point does spending become irrelevent.

    Just chucking some stray thoughts out there, but I’ve been trying to figure out what will happen in a PL with 4 or 5 super rich owners. Will it really change the league? Different teams might occupy the positions but we have had a pretty stable top 4 for the last few years are we looking a change in dominent clubs?.

    I think my mind in wondering a little to much.

  54. As I said I am not at liberty to disclose this. People who have seen me post on here know that I am not a wind-up merchant, I dont try and spread rumours etc.

    Besides if I wrote what I knew on here Usmanov would probably have the website shut down and that’s something none of us would want!

  55. How exciting…do you have a mole, TopGunPires? Surely you have to tell us now you can’t just leave it like that. Tell me are you in MI6?

  56. I could tell you I was in MI6 but i’d be lieing.

  57. If Murray’s description of Usmanov is incorrect surely Usmanov could manage better PR than David Deins “We must have investment so die”

  58. CIA? Mossad? ex Stassi?

  59. Sorry thats “or die”

  60. Frank,

    Your sarcasm is killing me.

  61. Wow is that all it takes

  62. Josef, don’t you realise Wenger cannot change his mind because this makes him a ‘liar’, not a man who when in possession of different facts is able to reassess his position and do something different to what he planned if this is the right thing to do?

    Tron, as for Arsene having too much power, how can you be manager of a football team without having the power to hire your own playing staff? Ask Curbishley and Keegan how they feel about not having that power.

  63. International weeks do most of the damage, the thought of having to watch England, after that it just takes a little push to get me over the edge.

  64. Oh well I totally agree. These bloody international breaks drive me nuts. Usually a good excuse for some Arsenal bashing….our fault that England have no players, foreigners etc, etc.

  65. Oh absolutely, it’s not like Upson, Cashley, Bentley and Theo all got their top flight careers underway with us is it?!

    I also find Theo’s inclusion quite strange. Don’t get me wrong I love the guy, his attitude is so refreshing compared to other young English players these days. But does his form really merit being included as the 4th striker out of 4?!?! Arsene seems to have a lot of influence over England managers!!

  66. Frank

    The story of his concerns was in the public domain long before Murray resigned.

    I was following it at the time due to an interest in politics and remember the sequence of events clearly.

    The first I heard of the alcoholic allegations were when our Uzbeki friend first surfaced.

    Besides, throughout the history of the diplomatic service a predilection for booze and sexually ambiguous debauchery were pre-requisites for any ambassador!

    Passenal – only in the minds of the most obsessive and narcissistic of supporters!

  67. Problem is AW has a brain, most England managers don’t.

  68. Josef K,

    I am sorry but that is rubbish and you know it.

  69. Im not sure about these guys trying to buy PL clubs but I do know it will beocme a joke quite soon if it continues. The tranfer periods will be a circus, aomething like an auction, everybody possible going to the highest bidder.

    Those of us who want Arsenal to be bought are just worrying about Arsenal and not about the sport on a whole, the whole is more important. I would prefer Arsenal not win but the integrity of the game is preserved than the other way.

    As far as Arsene not buying a DM – well we have Denilson, Diaby, Song, Djourou, Eboue and Ramsey. We may not think they ready or good enough, however Arsene does, good enough for me. Arsene did say he may buy and that we needed another body but it seems that when Eboue started to play halfway decent in that position he saw him as that body. Also it seems that some deals didnt come off as has been exhausted on this blog.

    You know I am glad Arsene is the way he is as I would not want a manager that tries to please every complaining, crying fan. Is that what we want from a manager? that would be silly.

    Be easy!!

  70. Paul,

    Totally agree with you on the foreign investors. What I really cant stand is the media glorification of it all. One mintue they’re going on about the ticket prices in the EPL, the lack of English players coming through the ranks, the grass roots getting forgotten about.

    And then suddenly everything changes becuase of some Arab with far more money than sense. The truth is all their complaints I listed above will only get worse as foreign investment continues.

    I’ve never been a fan of Platini but his gripes on foreign investors and clubs operating freely despite making huge losses I will totally support him on.

  71. Thats it TopGun!

  72. it is too late to continue complaining now about signings and we just have sit back pray and get on with it. however to suggest there were no players out there who would be better than eboue and denilson is ridiculous and to deny that we are weaker than we were a year ago or that the summer has been a failure based on wenger’s own criteria, ie to keep the team together, get more experiance and a big centre half / centre midfield is utterly delusional.

    he has made the decison and we will now see if he is correct. hopefully so.

    what some find frustrating me included is that if he is wrong, there will be no consequences and we will be having the same discussion we had this year and last year and that is not acceptable as far as i am concerned.

  73. Consolation just. When we start comparing our self with sp*rse, we shall end up like them. Arsene needs to up his ambitions any way. We are tired of the over gloryfication of kids.

  74. Frank.

    That is not an argument – and you know it.

  75. http://www.epltalk.com/wenger-criticism-is-wide-of-the-mark/3020

    The above is written by a Spurs fan, some fairweather Arsenal fans should read it and weep!

  76. Gunayen, what is your statement based on?

  77. I think that in all this, the glazers must be falling on the floor laughing.

    They’re not even vaguely in the league of the new Citeh owners, or RA, or the pool clowns or even usmanov and Kroenke, but they walked away with the EPL’s rown jewel, and the manusa fans are paying them for the privilege.

    In the comments on the last blog, two posters made very astute posts suggesting why AW did NOT spend what he had.

    He’s keeping his powder dry.

    He’d far rather keep a war chest to fend of these predators from our players like CEsc, than go and blow it on some arbitary player for the sake of it.

    AW has a strategy to keep the club competitive in this bizarre environment.

    Trying to follow the pack by blowing oney for the sake of it, just because it’s there, is short-sighted and stupid.

  78. And who is we?

  79. sorry, CROWN jewel, not “rown jewel”

    and MONEY, not “oney”.

    Hell’s teeth I’m a kak typist!

  80. I find it bizarre when the doom merchants claim with certainty that they “know” Cesc will leave because we’re going to fail dismally this season.

    For a start, how do they know he thinks like they do?

    He certainly hasn’t indicated that so far.

    Secondly, for these people the worst case scenario is always definitely going to happen, the club apparently never plan or see the obvious things.

    Hey, the board and AW have done pretty well with the team, the new stadium, the training ground etc etc.

    I’d say there are more tangible signs that they are competent than not so far.

  81. Frank,

    When making assertions you had better have some independent backup for them if you want to get into a discussion.

    Click my name for a BBC report from the time.

  82. Not inteded to be an argument, Josef K. I just object to the way you presented your information. When Usmanov set up Red & White Holdings and purchased Arsenal shares it gave Craig Murray the opportunity to use a big profile club for his self publicity. He built up a case against Usmanov after he had been sacked as the Ambassador for Uzbeckistan…when he originally decided to publicize the deficiencies in that regime…not difficult in any of those states on the silk road…Alisher Usmanov was never mentioned at that point. Usmanov and Arsenal are very useful to Craig Murray, and the truth is very foggy.

  83. And another one

    This one is the guardian though..

  84. Frank

    “Usmanov and Arsenal are very useful to Craig Murray”

    I certainly agree with that.

    Apologies for jumping over board.

  85. Usmanov is not an innocent, Joseph K, no-one with that kind of money is. But Craig Murray is also scheming and he is using my club for his own political and commercial reasons. I fear as with all these things we will never know the truth.

  86. Frank

    You’re back defending traitor Dein and satan Usmanov. How much is Dein paying you out of the 75 million quid he made from selling his Arsenal shares to Usmanov? If he cared about Arsenal why did he sold his shares to the Russian? Why don’t you advise Dein o leave the Arsenal alone after divesting his interest from the club?

  87. Josef K

    I know nothing about Usmanov beyond what I’ve read on Craig Murray’s site and from skimming his – in my view – very poor book. (It’s slackly argued which may reflect his limited intelligence or inexperience as a writer rather than his lack of integrity – I don’t know, but it’s definitely bad by serious academic or journalistic standards.)

    However, one of the few decent things – again in my view – Usmanov has done is to prevent the US having a military base in that strategically very significant part of the world. Murray lists this as among Usmanov’s crimes, a very officially British (as well as officially US) point of view, I’d have thought? So I’d be quite surprised if he did resign in protest at British and US policy. As far as I can see, his line on Usmanov was the official British one, was it not?

    I’m not suggesting Usmanov is a nice guy, just asking for clarification and some proper documentation. What else is there to read on (a) Usmanov and (b) Murray, beyond Murray himself?

  88. I see the usmanov jousting has continued while i’m on the bus home, great entertainment!

    Frank can i ask, you seem keen for people to know the dark side me mr murray. What is your opinion of usmanov?

  89. Mia

    You’d need to ask usmanov’s lawyers why you can’t read anything about him.

    And i think the people of georgia might have a different opinion on the lack of US presence in the region.

    Ah politics, the only thing i enjoy debating more than football!

  90. And I’m sure the people of Iraq, Aghanistan, Cuba and Saudia Arabia, to name a few, would have a different opinion on the excess of U.S presence.

  91. TopGunPires,

    My opinion of Usmanov is as follows;

    I don’t know the man but as a billionaire (him not me) I am deeply suspicious of his character..as I am incidentally of Abramovic, the Oil billionaires in the Gulf, Fiszman’ diamonds etc, etc. I would imagine surviving and even profiting in any the the silk road states is tough and anyone who succeeds in doing so is probably not the sort of person I would enjoy drinking with. The politics of that region are beyond my comprehension.

    If I was a billionaire and you started throwing insults to me around the media I would probably nail you if I could so I don’t see anything unusual in the litigation side.

    All in all not a nice guy, but then I don’t like PHW either or the idea of Lady BS, the Carrs etc.

    Probably says more about my own working class roots really. Don’t much like anyone famous except for Nelson Mandela, Dennis Bergkamp, Johann Cruyff, RvP and AW…maybe a few others.

    Craig Murray is just a twat and so is Howard.

  92. Oh and Mohammed Ali, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X..I like them too.

  93. Karl Marx anyone?:)

  94. Karl Marx yes Ateeb. None of the communist leaders though…didn’t read their Marx properly or just plain exploited the people as a whole.

    …and Darwin very pleased with him.

  95. Love Darwin, hate Social Darwinism… there’s a pattern emerging here!

  96. Well it’s a long debate to evaluate the Soviet leaders. But there’s no debate as far as MAO and Fidel Castro are concerned.

  97. Ateeb,

    Cuba i’ll go with you on. The saudi’s will be gratefull they weren’t invaded in the first gulf war by iraq. The fact that more people vote in iraq than do in the uk despite the danger involved also suggests they’re rather glad to be rid of saddam. And i’m also pretty sure that the entire female population of afghanistan are grateful that they are now entitled to an education.

  98. Yes, Fidel Castro has been a real star. Sadly not Mao though.

    Social Darwinism, birdkamp, is a horrible term and a nonsense of course.

  99. I have to agree with TopGunPires there, Ateeb.

  100. I was being facetious – drawing a parallel between the “heroes” who create systems of ideas and the villains who bastardise or misinterpret them. One-liners are all I’ll get in here – I’m not spontaneous enough!

  101. **Howard is back….with his English flag**

    I hope Walcott is smart enough to pick up a language or two. We’ve seen his foreign mates can speak English, do you think he can learn some languages beside learning some football skills from the best the world has to offer?

    Also Howard, we may be the only club in history that fielded 11 different nationalities. So it is not only French, but only the best in the world English or not.
    ===

    The so called 1960s fans, are now becoming hate Wenger fans. If you can’t support your club through thick and thin, maybe it’s time for you to jump of the Wagon and free some space for fans who will. Thanks so much for your support, Arsenal will survive without you.

    Harsh? Maybe. I just don’t see what your arguments will serve now when there is nothing to be done except support the club if you are truly a fan?

    G4E

  102. Frank,

    Whats your view on further ‘investment’ into the club from Usmanov with Dein at the helm?

  103. “Develop” is probably a better word than “create”.

  104. Very nice thinking, birdkamp, you are a star. Castro might be an exception.

  105. O.k Agreed on the Saudi Part as far as the iraqi invasion was countered. But their continued presence and influence, allows a saudi elite to siphon the oil money for their own purposes, while the working classes are worse than ever. You talk about democracy? Why isn’t U.S bent upon bringing in democracy to the Saudi’s? Oil interest? Allied with the elite? Probably.

    As for Saddam, you should know that the U.S had great hand as far as Saddam coming to power was concerned. And U.S continued to support him, untill he went against their interest, and went on with his military expedition.

    And HAHAHA at the people voting in Iraq? You’re gonna argue that it’s a working democracy? Come on, it’s a puppet government, same as in Afghanistan. People are highly unsatisfied with the way things turned out, and the corrupt U.S backed people in power at the moment.

    As far as women are concerned, I’d be a fool to defend the Taliban, because frankly they were nuts. But its a long history, and has to do with a civil war that raged upon Agfhanistan when the soviets left. The U.S and Pakistan, were highly involved with the Civil War, leading to widespread tyranny by the mujahideen war lords. The Mujahideen that were backed by the U.S, Paki, and Saudis. As the tyranny grew, we saw decadence in the society, as women were raped, Brothels, Sex trafficking e.t.c.And as a reaction to this, when the Taliban came into power, they went the extremist line, as far as women were concerned. That’s why the veil, which is not a big d eal. BUt the bigger deal was the Freedoms they lacked, schooling, job’s e.t.c. SO basically the policies the Taliban adopted were reactionary. They were totally wrong, but I’m just trying to show to you what happened and why it happened.

  106. Develop is a good word because it conjures up images of continuous flow, one thing built upon another. Ideas which enrich or refine previous ideas…yes develop will do.

  107. O.k Agreed on the Saudi Part as far as the iraqi invasion was countered. But their continued presence and influence, allows a saudi elite to siphon the oil money for their own purposes, while the working classes are worse than ever. You talk about democracy? Why isn’t U.S bent upon bringing in democracy to the Saudi’s? Oil interest? Allied with the elite? Probably.

    As for Saddam, you should know that the U.S had great hand as far as Saddam coming to power was concerned. And U.S continued to support him, untill he went against their interest, and went on with his military expedition.

    And HAHAHA at the people voting in Iraq? You’re gonna argue that it’s a working democracy? Come on, it’s a puppet government, same as in Afghanistan. People are highly unsatisfied with the way things turned out, and the corrupt U.S backed people in power at the moment.

    As far as women are concerned, I’d be a fool to defend the Taliban, because frankly they were nuts. But its a long history, and has to do with a civil war that raged upon Agfhanistan when the soviets left. The U.S and Pakistan, were highly involved with the Civil War, leading to widespread tyranny by the mujahideen war lords. The Mujahideen that were backed by the U.S, Paki, and Saudis. As the tyranny grew, we saw decadence in the society, as women were rap-ed, Brot-hels, Se-x trafficking e.t.c.And as a reaction to this, when the Taliban came into power, they went the extremist line, as far as women were concerned. That’s why the veil, which is not a big d eal. BUt the bigger deal was the Freedoms they lacked, schooling, job’s e.t.c. SO basically the policies the Taliban adopted were reactionary. They were totally wrong, but I’m just trying to show to you what happened and why it happened.

  108. The above message for Frank and Topgunpires. Rest can ignore. Discussing football with the international week in the background can be a bit dull.

  109. And even currently, the Nato and U.S forces hardly occupy more than 35% area in Afghanistan. The rest is still being ruled by various ethnic elites, including Talibans.

  110. The women..we forgot about the women. I like Marie Curie, Boudicca, Mary Seacole ….

  111. Oh and Rosalind Franklin, Edith Cavell…

  112. Shouldn’t the women think and act for themselves, Ateeb?

  113. birdkamp

    Frank is a paid agent of Dein. He’s been a PR guru working for Red & Whyte since Judas Dein sold the Arsenal for Usmanov’s silver coins. (YOGI can help you with his earlier postings) You’ll be shocked of his views about Usmanov’s so-called investments. He was one of those who raised the flags for Dein to come back as CEO using the Russian/Uzbeck clown, rapist, murderer and thief’s so-called wealth.

  114. Dear oh dear oh dear

  115. Ateeb

    I’m well versed in middle eastern politics and us foreign policy but thanks for the history lesson anyway.

    The taliban were reactionary? Wahabism was around long before the civil war.

  116. Offcourse they should. When did i say they shoudn’t? What the Taliban did was horrible. No questioning that. But you can’t break history in pieces and then analyze, but rather see it in contiinuation of various processes going about. And that was my point about Taliban being reactionary to what was happening during the civil war. And that’s why they came up with the brutal policies. To make things worse.

  117. frank is this true?!

  118. Oh jeez – misunderstanding here. I’m Big Al, with a wordpress account and I got a nifty pic of Richard Hell to go with it.

  119. Yes it is true TopGunPires…what the Taliban did/do was horrible, Ateeb is right.

  120. Long-time reader, recent contributor. Hang on, is that true Frank?

  121. TopGunpired
    Yeah religious ideas usually have a history.

    And Wahabism, actually was fostered by the Arab’s and Paki’s through madrassas, and the mujahideen, during the soviet occupation of Afghanistan. It wasn’t well entrenched in Afghanistan before the 80’s. It was during the occupation and after it, that it became imbedded in the Afghan society. And to a certain extent they were reactionary, they longed for stability which was missing. Brought an end to the civil war in their own brutal ways. So yeah reactionary should fit in nicely. But obviously its not the only adjective/noun that can be added to them.

  122. Ateeb,

    You clearly are well informed but surely you know the taliban didn’t come up with these policies? They’re derived from an extremist form of islam that has been cultivated in principally in the religious schools of saudi arabia. They wanted afghanistan to be some perverse throw back to their interpretation of sharia law.

    I hope yogi doesn’t mind us having this debate here! But you’re right its much more interesting than international football!

  123. Frank, how about not skirting the issue for once.

    Whats your view on further ‘investment’ into the club from Usmanov with Dein at the helm? Set the record straight.

  124. I have to warn you Howard that if you continue in this vein you will be visited by Alisher’s er I mean my lawyers. Very shoddy behaviour I must say.

  125. TopGun, this is interesting! I’m enjoying the knowledge.

  126. Alex, I will tell you later…meanwhile sit back and learn from Ateeb and TopGunPires..and birdkamp of course. I could start to enjoy international breaks.

  127. frank i meant is it true you’re mates with dein? I know the taliban were an evil bunch!

  128. TopGunPires,

    Agreed I just posted the same thing.

  129. To be honest paul i think ateeb knows alot more about this than me! He’ll catch me out sooner or later!

  130. Topgunpires

    And all these madrassas(religious schools) through which all the mujahideen and the Taliban to some extent, got their training were Saudi funded. Most of them are situated in Pakistan and some in afghanistan too .Because Saudi Arabia, has adapted the extremist version of Islam themselves in more or less significance i.e Wahabism. And it was favourable to them to export this brand of islam.

    Adjacent to Pakistan and Afghanistan, is the Shia Iran. And Shia’s and Sunni’s have a long history of hatred towards one another. So the Saudi policy, apart from getting the Soviets out, was to create a SUnni belt of Islam, that would include Pakistan, and Afghanistan, right next to the Shia Iran.

  131. TopGunPires,

    Not so much Dein as Usmanov. It all started two to three years ago. Before that I was just an ordinary English guy with Irish roots, grandparents lived in Holloway Road, brought up in the Midlands, went to a London university supported Arsenal all my life just like my dad. Then I started getting these headaches and strange flashbacks. People in strange clothes, nice people, lots of children playing …. then gunfire, people dragged away, screaming. I would wake up sweating. Then I started to have dreams about firing ranges, soldiers, being forced to learn scripts..then blinding headaches. I started to speak Uzbecki in my sleep..or so my wife says. Then I was visited by two strangers… of course I recognised David Dein immediately…but the other he just clicked his fingers and told me that I should follow Craig Murray and several newspaper editors…oh and I should monitor Arsenal blogsites….well you can guess the rest.

  132. Interesting. I’m always coming at this from a US foreign policy angle but obviously given recent history i’ve been delving into middle eastern politics.

    I should you probably say although i’m sure you’ve spotted already i’m essentially a neo-con, before you all start hissing and booing we are widely misunderstood in europe!

    So its always been saudi that has confused me. 17 out of 19 from september 11th were saudi, the biggest financial backing comes from saudi and the most radical ideas come from saudi. But so does oil with a friendly regime. Its a real dilemma!

  133. Interesting. I’m always coming at this from a US foreign policy angle but obviously given recent history i’ve been delving into middle eastern politics.

    I should probably say although i’m sure you’ve spotted already i’m essentially a neo-con, before you all start hissing and booing we are widely misunderstood in europe!

    So its always been saudi that has confused me. 17 out of 19 from september 11th were saudi, the biggest financial backing comes from saudi and the most radical ideas come from saudi. But so does oil with a friendly regime. Its a real dilemma!

  134. No need to repeat yourself, TopGunPires

  135. frank i’ll have some of whatever you’re smoking!

  136. sorry i’m doin this on my phone.

  137. Rose, dear fellow..plain old Cotes du Ventoux rose, from just south of Paris, France. There is probably a Californian equivalent.

  138. What exactly are you doing on your phone, TopGunPires?

  139. Oh my goodness and here was me thinking it was going to be up-the-arse or Wenger-must-go, the first of which is OK but probably not interesting enough to sustain us right through this dreary week. Carry on, please, it’s loads more interesting!

    TopGunPires, one of the many good things about Pires is that he was against the invasion of Iraq and would have gone on the demo if he hadn’t been playing in, I think, an FA Cup game on that Saturday.

  140. TopGun, is doesnt matter who knows more, learning is great. Politics does wary me, especially, international wise as the main concern is never really the abuse of the common man but what can be gained. When you look at situations such as Sierra Leone, Haiti, Sudan it shows what is really important to man, regardless of the nation we are from.

  141. I’m not from Europe so I won’t misunderstand you. But since you’re a neo-con, its been primarly your ideas that have shaped U.S policy since the 1990s. And it’s been a mess. I’m not making an attack on you personally, but neo-cons in general. The very fact that you reject any conception of imperialism, financial and monopoly capitalism, is basing your foundations on very very flawed footings. More than half the problem of this so called clash of civilization is created by the U.S policy, that serves to a great extent the industrial-military complex at home. Bt that’s another debate.

    The other point is that its not just oil, but huge amount of investments in American companies is Saudi’s. I dont remember the figure, but it was certainly around a $ trillion. Saudi’s can’t be touched, if they pull the plug of their investments, an acute recession might set in.

    But the radical idea’s or terrorism per say, is not supported by the Saudi’s, as far as attacks against the U.S are concerned. Maybe they are. One can only theorize and give his own opinion.But the fact is that it’s the type of regime they are running, that demands old extremist conceptualization of Islam, in order to keep the population in control. It’s basically a monarchy, that uses religion to legitimize it’s rule. And when the people see the U.S policy in the middle east, they realize the hypocrisy of the Saudi regime, that leads to radical ideas, against both the Saudi and U.S.

  142. frank, i’m on the internet on my phone so navigating is a bit more tricky.

    Mia, try and find a french person that supported the war in iraq. It had very little to do with geopolitical concerns and a lot more to do with anti-american sentiments.

  143. Ah… I hadn’t quite taken in your neo-con leanings when I wrote that. Perhaps you’ll want to change your name now you know the politics of your namesake? Not quite sure to what, though? Who might have neo-con sympathies – Beckham perhaps?

  144. Paul
    it’s not just the situation in Siera Leone, Sudan or Haiti that is worrying. The problem exists in every country, in varied form. Sure th security issue is a mess in the above mentioned countries, but in our very own countries poverty, growing inequalities, lack of welfare is a big concern. I think the poverty rate in the U.S is around 14%. No wonder you have NYC as one of the cities with more crimes, because the hypocricy of capitalism becomes visble to the common man. And he resorts to force, when all else fails. Sure the racial question in the U.S has been discarded, but it still exists, since it has been institutionalized through different means. Education, JOb recruitment, no economic heritage, e.t.c. Sadly,the only good thing that happened for the African American, was that due to immigration, people from Eastern Europe and Asia, poured in, allowing the African Americans, to gain some social and economic mobility. WHile the people moving in, resorted to whatever menial jobs the African American had been doing in the past.

  145. hahaha….I was just looking over my post, to check if i used the politically correct label for the ‘African Americans’. If I missed any, then apologies.

  146. As an Englishman I run to the hills of my Irish ancestry in cowardly fashion when we discuss imperialism, particularly British imperialism but it seems to me that Arab as well as British and latterly American imperialism have contributed hugely to the complicated state of affairs in the Middle East.

  147. But how would you account for those anti-US sentiments among the French (and the Germans and a whole lot of other people in Europe and elsewhere)? It wouldn’t have something to do with their foreign policy by any chance, would it I don’t know anyone who is anti-American as such, i.e. in the way Howard is anti-everyone who’s not English, but there is immense hostility to the past and current US regime’s conviction that it’s doing us all a favour by bombing the world to smithereens.

  148. Mia,

    Are the French not now committing military resources to conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq?

  149. I agree with you Ateeb! Living in the US, I know all to well that Racism is alive and kickin were we least expect it to be. No matter how we try we cannot legislate against it as it is a matter of choice. Yes we can have affirmative action but it can really go as far as the quota in many cases. I do have hope though as I think the younger generation though they maybe do not have the manners and respect as before but they do not see race in the same way, mostly. Some mindsets will not change until many of the older folks die.

    I am a Christian but I always say that rap music has done something the church is yet to do on a whole which is to bring all people together regardless of race. negatively in many cases but together none the less.

    As far as Sierra Leone and the other nations Istated, the problem I have is that there was mass and is carnage, slavery and suffering and our great nations sit by and let it happen. Where in aother situations we act rather swiftly.

  150. Mia,

    I think much of the current European anti-American sentiment has its roots in the Vietnam war. Both Germany and France have a great tradition of student activism (which put the UK to shame) and their point of reference is ‘68 – kids in Europe grow up distrusting the US. The ‘68 activists are the generation in power now. Any warmongering from the US just affirms 40 year old conceptions.

    As I see it.

    The conversation’s finally moving towards something I can contribute to, but my hands get detached from my brain when I type!

  151. The way you ended that post really isn’t helpful to understanding the complexities involved.

    In real basic terms the US is only behaving like any other superpower in history: trying to exert its influence to promote its own national interests. The reason europeans are so annoyed bout this is because we have very little influence.

    And i choose my sporting heroes on their sporting talents. Bobby was a great footballer but my hero worship doesn’t extend to agreeing with everything he believes in.

  152. Why single out hip hop Paul N. What about bee-bop, blues, soul, bossa nova, ska, reggae, folk…almost everything but country has brought different races together. Perhaps rhythm is the key..everyone is happy to share their music…except country of course…stange that it should be called country.

  153. And frank is right there is currently a beauty parade goin on between the brits, the french and the germans to be america’s key ally in europe.

  154. The Brits are out of it I am afraid, TopGunPires. Too many of our banks invested in the US subprime market. We can barely afford French wine these days. We are just grateful that one or two of you can find the time to support our football teams.

  155. Paul
    This talk about the civilized West is a hoax. Barbarians we all have been.It wasn’t too long ago that the West itself didn’t allow women to vote, was CAPTURING African slaves and taking them all over the world.SLAVE TRADE. The legacy lives on in Africa. The worst part for the African’s is that after hundreads of years of most brutal exploitation, the whole continent has been unplugged from the World Economy. Only a few countries in Africa thrive, such as South Africa, that too because of the various mineral resources, and maybe the white elite has to do something as well. The West have tied up in Debt, which im not sure but didnt exceed $6 dollars. And for the Africans that is shit lot of dept with interest to pay back. WHy not just forgive the freaking debt? $6 billion is a hoax for the West as a whole. But we continue to supply them with weapons whenever they want, so tat they can take each other out. WE continue to support their tyrannical dictators, that gurantee us good mineral resources. You see what I’m getting into?

  156. I agree with you Frank, music on a whole has that power. But if you mention most of these musics they are not loved by the masses as rap is. I live in Texas now and trust me I barely hear reggae, Lived in Florida and it was the same initially. Can you believe, I met people in Florida who did not know Bob Marley, I was blown away. So its not that these musics havent brought us together but not on the grand scale of rap. If you get my drift.

  157. Is this really “A Cultured Left Foot” or am I lost in some politico-sphere somewhere?

  158. This international break is a bit like playing football between the trenches at Christmas. Beckett would have enjoyed this conversation.

  159. I hear you Ateeb with a lot of pain in my heart, its really disheartening.

  160. Birdkamp,
    The 68 activit’s are sadly not in power. And if they are, they’re not leaning to the same leftist belifs that they inspired to. MOst of the intellectual movement of that decade got disillusioned, and went the post-modernist way. ]

    Topgun
    U.S is only behaving the way all superpowers have behaved, doesnt justify what they’re doing. Sure if you talk about the system that leads to such simiiarities than thats true, because it’s to do with the State’s role. But on a moral note, what they’re doing is pretty much screwing up the world since the second world war.

  161. Well I live in London, Paul N and you can hear all genres of music all of the time listened to by all of the people. Same in Paris…same in Rome…same in Munich (well actually not in Munich) but in Berlin for sure. Amsterdam too…get my point TopGunPires?

  162. Frank i am a brit! Lived in london all my life apart from when i was at uni.

  163. Topgun,
    About the beauty parade pf the French n Germans: well what you have in Iraq and Afghanistan, is shit lot of investment opportunities. So since the war has already gone forward, why not jump in and make some cash of our own? ;)
    Pink Floyd ” Money, its a gas.
    Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash ”

    Dont know if that fits in, put love the song.

  164. Well then you do get my point, TopGunPires. What exactly is a brit by the way?

  165. Ateeb,

    I’m not here to defend the US government. And i don’t really like to comment on things that happened before i can remember (i’m quite young) but i wouldn’t call overthrowing saddam and the taliban screwing up the world.

    I’m a british citizen, lived in this country all my life but i got so bored of anti-american sentiments in this country i went looking for answers elsewhere and for me what i found is far more persuasive.

    I know very few people in europe agree with my sentiments but i don’t think that makes them less valid than anybody elses. At the end of the day, you think i’m wrong, i think i’m misunderstood.

  166. Frank, yes, alas it is.

    Birdkamp, I agree Vietnam was formative for many people, plus US involvement across South and Central America, but for people on the left distrust of the US goes way back to the fifties. For the a-political French, on the other hand, I think all things American were in favour for decades: if they spoke English it was with an American accent, they smoked American cigarettes, liked American movies, etc. It was the English who were disliked.

  167. In real basic terms the US is only behaving like any other superpower in history: trying to exert its influence to promote its own national interests.

    Exactly. The problem is: this is an awful thing and should be stopped. Two thirds of the world are being turned into a concentration camp just to keep feeding the US industrial-military complex and the ones of its allies. This are the consequences of imperialism, it’s a fact. Supporting it or just saying “this is how it has always been so why should be get upset about it?” is being quite cynical to the disasters it’s causing.

    Ateeb: good posts, and I especially liked your mentions to Marx and postmodernism. :P

  168. Mia,

    In fact that goes for the Germans too. I think the anti-English sentiment in Europe is far greater than anti-American.

    But really it is the Uzbeckis who have the real problem..no-one seems to like them at all.

  169. Topgun:
    You’re gonna back up the U.S with just two examples of saddam and Taliban. Where clearly the problems, were created by the U.S to a large extent. There are mroe then a hundread cases of direct U.S military involvment in affairs of another country since WW2. No one can justify that? And taking out Saddam? Well what the heck was the U.S doing in Iraq in the first place? i dont see any nuclear weapons, Do u? And U.S had no right to intervene in the affairs of another country. There are more than 20 dictatorships in the world at the moment, why go for just Iraq? And why support a dictator in Pakistan? Hypocrisy? Dont believe whatever the media feeds you. Stay away from fox news i tell you.

    DO you really believe the crap about bringing democracy to another country? Do you fail to see the oil, that’s driving the U.S country, and long term strategic goals, with bases next to russia, china and india. Right below the oil fields of kazakhstan or the other countries.

    Dont get persuaded so easily. ANd i don’t think youre misunderstood, you’ve been misled in my opinion. And im young too. Probably younger then you. Sorry if I was a bit Harsh.

  170. wouldn’t call overthrowing saddam and the taliban screwing up the world.

    None of us support these regimes, Paul. But do you think that the people who promoted the invasion to Afghanistan and Iraq care at all about this? It’s just an excuse to invade these countries and get its natural resources or workforce or strategical geopolitical place to place some military bases. They always find one, there is always some kind of abuse in the thirld world that can be used as an excuse to invade it and “save it” from it, and if there isn’t they can invent it (as they did in Venezuela or they do in Cuba). Oppression of women, dictators, and so on: the US doesn’t care about them. They’ve supported or support dozens of regimes that do these things and worst. They just use this as an excuse when they find it useful for geopolitical reasons, and start repeating it in the media for people to buy it and have consensus over the invasions. Then conveniently forget it if the new regime keeps doing it but has a policy that favours US interests.

  171. Well thats the problem you see, you are both too young. I am old and I understand it all perfectly…but you won’t listen because you are young.

  172. Sorry, I said Paul but I meant Topgunpires.

  173. A concentration camp? Comments like that are just absurd.

    Anyways i can see i’m vastly outnumbered here and i’m far too tired to argue with all of you but its been an honour and a privilege!

    Tomorrow i want the eboue bashers out in force so i can defend another poor misunderstood soul.

    Night all

  174. hehe…Frank after reading your post, im sure im older then you atleast:P

    Non EdibleNacho, good post. Your’s was a more articulate reply to Topgun:)

  175. Yes Frank, I am from London also. In America each genre of music is not so popular everywhere but rap has crossed even the most country borders. Its due to TV as I see it.

  176. Topgun:
    Ill defend Eboue with you for sure tommorow, because he’s the only real misunderstood soul:)

  177. I don’t think anyone misunderstands you at all, TopGunPires, you have made your views very clear.

    Good night

  178. Yogi’s going to be slightly pissed tommorow, at how a footballing blog deviated to political discussions.

  179. Perhaps you are just wired for hip hop Paul N. You can have that sort of thing sorted out you know. Micro or key hole surgery or drugs…especially drugs.

  180. I have no real problems with Eboue (ok, I don’t like it when he dives, but that doesn’t justify the insane levels of hatred he receives).

    A concentration camp? Comments like that are just absurd.

    Sure? Have you been to Indonesia? Haití? Iraq? Palestine?

  181. You seem to have great holidays, Non EdibleNacho

  182. Ateeb: possibly, buy hey, this is so better than the arguing against the doomers. It’s a much more pleasent way of passing by the international period. What else could we comment about? Denilson and Almunia are probably playing rock-paper-scissors in training.

  183. I’ve just noticed there was a space missing in my nickname. Thanks Frank. :P

  184. What exactly is a non edible nacho

    …don’t tell me I have just fallen into the trap haven’t I?

  185. Ateeb, fair point about postmodernism. And no, the 68 generation certainly aren’t in power; it’s their children who are, and who predictably have reacted against them. David Milliband’s parents, for example, were hugely influential in the sixties, and look how he has turned out – an adamant New Labour Blair and Brown man!

  186. Mia,

    Isn’t post-modernism just more modern modernism?

  187. Heh. No Frank. “Nacho” is how I’m normally called, which is quite a normal “nickname” in spanish speaking countries, but as in the UK “nacho” probably only reminds people of snacks, I feel the need of clarifying I’m not one. So as to avoid being covered in cheese and stuff like that, which doesn’t sound like fun.

  188. ok i can’t resist one more post. Just to address one point you made ateeb, do i believe in the crap about bringing democracy to other countries?

    Seeing as no two democracies have ever gone to war with each other yes i do believe it.

    I don’t watch fox news, and clearly i’m not easily led otherwise i’d think the same as everybody else in this country.

    Just because my opinion isn’t the same as yours doesn’t make me some kind of simpleton who believes in something for no good reason.

    I look forward to defending the mighty eboue tomorrow!

  189. Well Nacho I think that being covered in cheese and stuff could be fun with the right partner.

  190. Non Edible Nacho
    Agreed about the pleasant day/night. Strangely no doom mongerers visited us. Maybe they did, and supported U.S imperialism, through and through, and weren’t in the mood to defend.

    As far as eboue is concered, true about his diving, its a real piss off. And since he isnt changing his habbit, maybe we ought to get him coaching classes from Cristiano Ronaldo. Maybe he can teach him, a few of his diving tricks, and maybe Eboue would look less of a fool.

  191. TopGunPires, my daughter did the same earlier..

    Now go to bed.

    Good night

  192. Frank, NO!

    But we’re agreed that no one much likes the English, Bush, Eboue, the Uzbeckis. Oh and what about the poor South Ossetians? Absolutely no one likes them.

  193. Bloody hell, I think this must be where the intellectual Arsenal fans congregate. Great reading – keep going! :P

  194. Topgun,
    I never questioned if democracy is the way forward. You didnt get the point i was trying to get at. It was more to do with U.S intentions to export democracy in manners that are unjustifiable, and totally misleading. It’s just a freakin excuse to invade another country.

    Read “Non edible Nacho’s” post at 11:30 pm. You’ll get your answer. I am tired now.

  195. Ok Ok Mia, just wondered…there must be a thin sliver of time during which postmodernism becomes modernism but it might be difficult to detect. Happens when we are all asleep I expect. Are there any South Ossetian billionaires?

  196. Looks like I’m a bit late for the politics but to answer Ateeb’s question about why the US was in Iraq in the first place it was all to do with Saudi Arabia. When Saddam took the oil fields in 1991 he wanted to export this oil thus increasing supply and driving down the price. The problem with this was that if the oil price fell, Saudi oil profits would fall. Saudi Arabia in 1991 was the biggest buyer of arms from the US and the US didn’t want to have their profits from arm sales reduced or have their biggest customer compromised.

  197. Saddam was also a good friend of the US and the UK in the 70s-80s. The UK armed up Saddam against the Iranians in the 1980s as did the US. I think that the US managed to arm the Iranians as well. The idea that the US wanted to liberate Iraq from Saddam is quite frankly, laughable. In 1978 Saddam gassed 100,000 Kurds to death but this was conveniently forgotten in the following years when the UK and US were making millions selling Saddam arms. He even used some of them against the allies in the 1991 Gulf War.

  198. Topgun:
    “Seeing as no two democracies have ever gone to war with each other yes i do believe it.”

    You’re forgetting that a country that has been heavily involved in wars after the WW2, has been the U.S. And last time i checked it was a FLOURISHING democracy. It’s FLourshied to the point where the difference between republicans and democrats is almost nil.

  199. We have often talked about spin on this blog but the Gulf War is a terrifying example of what this can mean when taken to its extreme.

    The idea that Saddam stole Kuwaiti oil in 1991 is a lie. The oil field stood on disputed land i.e no-one owned it – not Saddam and not Kuwait.

    The idea that this was even a war is a gross exaggeration. Allied losses in the first Gulf War were under 200 wheras the WHO estimated that over 250,000 Iraqis died. This was not a war it was a slaughter.

  200. Alex:
    That question was related to the present occuptaion in Iraq. And i know what they’re doing there, but was asking topgunpires to back up his statment of the benevelont U.S., as he sees it. And i’m not sure about this but i read somewhere that another saddam lately pissed of U.S, by trying to get money from oil in EUros rather then Dollars. Which really really pissed off the U.S, because the dollar was already losing groung on the EUro and other currency. Well probably one of the reasons.

  201. Ateeb,

    The difference between political parties in the UK and US is very little and this is deliberate. The idea is to strangle debate and free choice and present voters with a fait accompli.

  202. Ateeb,

    I feel sorry for topgun if he sees the US as benevolent. As you said they have been responsible for many invasions since WW2.

    Regarding the second Gulf War, weapons of mass destruction was not the reason for the invasion. I have a speech made by Colin Powell in 2001 on video saying that the are no WMDs and that the weapons inspectors had done their job.

    I think the second invasion was simply down to expansionism and wanting to further US interests in the middle east. The lucrative contracts to rebuild the country played a part also.

  203. Alex:
    Yes the contracts, and expansionism was the key reason for the U.S assault. No wonder the French, and Germans, jumped in to “Rebuild” the country. Anyways I’m off.

    Keep watch. ( I view this blog as a rational fortress against doom mongerer).

  204. Oh Dear, football has caused some world problems it seems.

  205. Get a grip people or go to a political forum.

  206. Well Nacho I think that being covered in cheese and stuff could be fun with the right partner.

    Maybe, buy it would be strange to find one of them in the blogs where I use this nickname. They are more likely to be angry Arsenal fans. :P

  207. Alex: I see we agree more on this issue than on Arsenal. I fully support your idea about the lack of differences between parties. Click on my nickname for an interesting (albeit non-academical) study about it. As time goes by, democracy means less than it used to, the options available are becoming close to identical.

  208. Nah Frank, its just what it is over here, Trust Me!. Talk about music, you can give me Stevie Wonder, The Impressions (Curtis Mayfield), Sam Cooke, The Manhattans. Dennis Brown, Freddie McGregor and the like. Love Gospel Music – Kirk Franklin, Sarah Groves, Fred Hammond and a British Gospel group – Raymond and Co.

    Be Blessed!

  209. This was kind of an off day, Steve, and we got here by talking about football’s owners, it’s not that we picked a random topic to start talking about. Football chat will resume soon.

  210. I had posted many times the same thing per below:
    For the last few years, AW & the board had been doing the same thing – it’s a merry go round. Before or early season – we can challenge for trophies, we got monies to spend, the squad is strong enough to face any challenges etc. By the end of the season – the ref got it wrong in certain matches, we are unlucky as some of our major players injured, the international break has been effecting our performance etc. So… it is kind of like KARMA… Hope u all enjoy it…. Unless AW can prove me wrong this time round…

  211. To the tune of Jumpin’Jack Flash.
    Clap on each beat of the bar throughout.

    Sing the guitar riff bit first:
    “da-daa da-da-daa da-da-daa da-da-da
    da-daa da-da-daa da-da-daa”

    Then sing chorus:

    ” It’s alright now
    He’s Cesc Fabregas
    Yes it’s alright
    Cesc Fabregas is a gas gas gas”

    Repeat guitar riff bit.


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