If ever there was an occasion for requiring proof that the footballing authorities and club owners were certifiably insane, yesterday would give the Prosecution cast iron evidence of this. Regular readers will need no reminding of the distain in which I hold the ‘powers that be’. ‘Scraping the bottom of the barrel’ is an English colloquialism to describe a nadir; the FA Premier League Board have not plummeted to that depth. They have smashed through the bottom of this barrel and are still travelling downwards through the myriad layers of Hell at a rapid rate of knots.
To suggest that the Premier League requires an additional game for each club at the season’s end is not even laughable; it ought to be the work of a fantasist, published in a trash novel or the opinion column of an irrational webmaster seeking to drive numbers to their site by the deployment of a sensationalist headline. Sadly, it is the sound of money talking louder than commonsense.
The decision to allow West Ham to remain in the top flight was the first proof, if any were needed, that integrity in English football is at an all time low, if it ever existed since the inception of the Premier League. A competition whose foundations are laid in a base of greed has not one shred of moral integrity to stand on. The base fear of how the footballing landscape would be changed by foreign ownership never truly encompassed the irrationality of such a move. Even when it was first mooted a couple of months ago about playing a normal game abroad, an assumption was made that not even the EPL would be that stupid. Well, it has been proven that they are; the turkeys have truly voted for Christmas.
This action though is a logical extension of the successful marketing of the English game yet it is designed to destroy the notion of a domestic league. The international flavour of the game has brought it to a level of excitement on the pitch that could not have been achieved through the talent of the indigenous players; they are not good enough as proven by the national team. The Premier League is the most popular in the world in terms of attention, which is not denied or contradicted. However, is this step that will kill that?
The argument needs to be broken into two parts, both of which have solutions. Firstly, why an additional game? There is no rationality in this. The objective is to play everyone home and away, it has a natural fairness about it and has made the league what it is today. An additional element added to that destroys it. The League title will rarely, if ever, be decided on the last day of the season which is what this is trying to invoke. Only three times in the last two decades can I recall the final day deciding a title, when Arsenal, Blackburn and Manchester United emerged victorious. Relegation is an altogether different matter, last season being a good example of this. However, how would Wigan or West Ham in particular feel if they had got their points then to subsequently be beaten in the last game in Dubai against Watford or someone of that ilk? How would we as Arsenal fans have felt if fourth place had been lost two seasons ago on the Miami killing fields?
The idea is out of step with the league simply because of the differing standards of the teams. Even if the EPL introduces a scheme whereby the 1st place plays 20th, 2nd plays 19th, etc, there is still an inherent unfairness to it all. Form goes out of the window in a one-off match; one good performance can rescue a team when thirty-eight games suggest that they are no better than a competitor is.
There are other solutions to their desire to improve revenues but all our equally flawed, for example playing two matches against the same opposition without increasing the number of games leaves a level playing field. To work, to allow acclimatisation for the players the number of clubs in the division would have to be reduced, an action that will not happen. An EPL Cup with the winners getting the Carling Cup place in Europe might be more acceptable to the top flight but unacceptable to the Football League.
Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this all is the inability of supporters to stop it happening. The petitions should still be signed but the action required to make them effective will not be taken. We might be outraged but I can guarantee that there will not be any cohesive action to reinforce the strength of feeling. If there is a genuine desire to stop this happening, a co-ordinating body needs to arrange for one weekend of the remainder of the season to be fan-free. No-one should attend a match; hit the clubs owners in the only manner that they understand – money. Remove one week’s revenue and even Arsenal feel the pinch. But it will not happen for the clubs understand that not everyone will feel strongly enough about it to forgo their fix. We matter less and less on matchday’s with the vast broadcasting and ancillary revenues. Also, the relationship is heavily weighted in one party’s favour – that of the clubs. They know that every thousand who do not attend there are probably another seven hundred to take their places. Hardly a concern for clubs which can operate on stadia being two thirds full on a regular basis.
In these circumstances, the saviours may well be those upon whom we heap scorn on a regular basis; FIFA and UEFA. No doubt the EPL took soundings from them and the FA before this announcement but it is truly a case of ‘buyer beware’. Sepp Blatter is a formidable football politician and one word in an ally’s ear could start a ball rolling that the English clubs are powerless to stop. The fear for the rulemakers will be that the clubs will gain too much financial clout over the coming years because if this experiment is allowed to continue, the Spaniards and Italians will certainly follow suit, meaning that the three biggest leagues in the money stakes will be in cahoots. That almost certainly will lead to demands for more power over national associations. Blatter will be aware of this and will not allow it to happen.
The second ally to the supporter are the players and managers unions. Individually there are few managers whose objections will be truly listened to by the Board. One is Wenger and I am actually struggling for any others; Ferguson will be listened to and then ignored as will Benitez. A co-incidence that they have foreign owners? I think not. The Unions are a different matter. If the PFA and LMA feel so strongly about this, then they should ballot for strike action to have the matter quashed at birth. They will not for they benefit financially from such an arrangement.
The overriding feeling that I have of this is one of despair. I do not deny those who live abroad the wish to see Arsenal in action but the manner of this scheme leaves me cold about football’s rulers, not that they ever gave me a warm, cuddly feeling.
My wish would be that the Arsenal Board comes out in a strong condemnation of this idea. As of yet, the only item on the website is to reproduce the EPL Press Release. I would strongly urge you all to contact the club to condemn this move. Maybe, just maybe, we are not as weak collectively as I think. More importantly, if one big club comes out against it, others will reconsider their positions.
‘til Tomorrow.























The press release says that it was unanimously agreed to take a further look. So it seems our board is at least interested.
By: klon on February 8, 2008
at 10:47 am
Firsty, I live in Johannesburg and emotionly would love to watch Arsenal play Man U in a competitive game in my home town, but practically I don’t want it to happen because it is stupid and the most rubbish idea to come out of the UK since the invasion of Iraq.
The EPL is ALREADY the most popular league in the world. What is there to be gained by playing in foreign countries? Many of you do not know this in the UK but we see more EPL games than people in the UK because in most of the world, the football is concentrated in one place (service provider). We do not have cable, satellite, etc. etc. Whoever gets the rights gets all rights. Since I see ALL Arsenal games on TV, what will Arsenal gain by actually coming here?
Secondly, this idea comes out of the American mentality where they play their American football in London and send NBA teams around the world. It makes sense for them because their sports are not well-known around the world. Football is by far the no 1 sport in the world. It needs no marketing. The benefits of this move are miniscule.
What about the costs? Imagine teams flying from the UK to the US, South America and South Africa to play games. They will need a two week break from normal EPL games because of distance, jet lag, etc. Already the fixtures are congested. How do u manage this?
The biggest cost will be to the countries where the games are played. How do you think we will feel in South Africa when two English “imperialist” teams show up on our shores, take up all the security forces we can muster for a whole week, cruise around town with their fancy buses while local footballers eat shit??? In some countries, local teams struggle to fill stadiums as it is. Then Man U show up and the stadium is full. Those people at the game will not go to another local game for the next year because they will have spent the whole year’s budget!!
What is wrong with you English people? We love football, but we love English football even more because of its perceived honesty and passion. With the billionaire takeovers and this stupid idea, you are on a one-way trip to hell!!!!!
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 10:49 am
Imagine 1989.
Arsenal come streaming forward now in surely what will be their last attack… A good ball by Dixon, finding Smith, for Thomas, charging through the midfield…Thomas, it’s up for grabs now… Thomas, right at the end… An unbelievable climax to the league season… to give Arsenal the edge going into the international round of fixtures.
It’s enough to make me cry.
By: G10 on February 8, 2008
at 10:52 am
I am a bit split on this one.
I think it is something the Chairman wants and the Manager/Coach does not.
I think they said that the games would be played in Jan and the games had to be played in good climates, so Northern Europe, Asia and the Northern states of America are out. The problem there is that it will mean at least a 8hr flight, and with the time zones I guess only those playing in Dubai will have minimal suffering. I feel for those playing in LA, Hong Kong and Sydney
The Reason I am split though is that I lived out in the Far East for a few years and know how passionate they are for the Premiership, and contrary to the stories of them supporting only the big 4, I have seen some Championship and below shirts being worn by the locals. Ultimately globalisation of the Arsenal brand brings a lot of money into the club so I would like to see these loyal fans given an opportunity of getting to see their favorite team, and like us saying that we cant afford to travel to Miami to watch Arsenal v Wigan, they cant afford to travel to London to watch us either
But I agree it should not be part of the Premiership campaign, instead I would like to see more commitment from teams to take part in pre-season competitions in the Far East with a further commitment to field strong teams. I fell this worked well with Livepool and Pompey out in Hong Kong this year and the inclusion of local teams also gives the local players the dream of playing against your Henry’s, Ronaldo’s, Gerrards and Robbie Savage
The Premier League do say that they will need to add something to the brand to keep up the global interest. Well why not add Celtic and Rangers to the party in the 2010/11 Season. They both have huge global support and surely this would increase the interest, especially as within a few years both would probably be in a position to win it.
By: patthegooner on February 8, 2008
at 10:56 am
i thought they said it definately wouldn’t be the last game of the season
but its still a shite idea
By: Mark on February 8, 2008
at 10:56 am
Patthegooner, let’s think about this a minute. As a Gunners fan, I know where you are coming from. As a citizen of a country where the games may be played, I’m in no doubt that it will backfire.
The love we have for the EPL will disappear in bitterness at seeing these overfed, spoilt Europeans taking our money while our football wallows in misery. We like the off-season trips because they are developmental, with games against local teams, coaching clinics, etc. They are also not expensive to attend.
This, on the other hand is competition to our local football. I know it may be one game in a year but many will sit at home waiting for this occasion and never attend local football games. It is football imperialism and you will be hated for it in the long term.
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 11:02 am
great posting. absolutely agree with you. more thoughts back at the blog
fpb
http://www.pastapaulie.wordpress.com
By: FPB on February 8, 2008
at 11:05 am
I agree with Yogi.
I think 99% of us fans think this is a ridiculously stupid idea.
The point is – what do we do to stop it? And can we?
On a lighter note, i seriously hope that the ACN has not permanently affected Kolo and he comes back and plays for us like he did last night…
To say he had a stinker is an understatement!
By: Matt on February 8, 2008
at 11:07 am
Hey Matt, I’m with you on the Kolo comment. He looked drunk!!!!
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 11:11 am
I’m living in Norway. I don’t think the 39th match would ever take place in this country, because thousands of Norwegians travel to England every month to see Premier League football. I hate the idea of Premier League matches taking place other places than in England. It would be extremely unfair to english fans who spend a lot of money to watch their team through the season if the climax of the season should take place in Asia or Africa.
This is the worst idea ever…
By: bergy on February 8, 2008
at 11:30 am
I am very disapointed that not one premier league club was against the idea.
It looks like it will happen, but would like to see supporters who go to games make some kind of stance.. Either refusing to buy drinks programs etc or every club supporters staging a walk out at half time by way of protest.
As and when it does come in I will be very interested to see what the ticket prices will be, as I believe they will be a lot lower than what we pay for our tickets. I imagine that if Wigan were drawn to play say Middlesborough in China ,, then we would then suddenly see a couple of chinese loanees picked to fill the ground.
I believe Arsenal should have stood against this, I am sure Wenger is totally against it, thats unless we get a game in Paris!!
By: Robbie on February 8, 2008
at 11:35 am
LB that is why I believe that this should not be part of the Premiership Campaign.
It should only be 5 annual Pre-season competitions in say Australia, China, Hong Kong, South Africa and the UAE (Dubai). You could have 4 Premiership teams in each with at least one having finished in the top 5 the season before, and some local clubs should be invited. The Clubs would still get the revenue in, the Premiership would still be selling the brand, the Local fans would see there heroes, and local players would be playing against them. It should also be played on the same long weekend (Thursday to Sunday) so they can televise the lot
Not sure if we can do anything about it as apparently according to Talk Sport, the big wigs from the premiership laughed off suggestions that fans from the UK should be consulted.
By: patthegooner on February 8, 2008
at 11:47 am
Brian Moore’s commentry still gives me goosebumps 19 years on…..
Oh yes and competaive fixtures around the globe is silly……pre-season tourney’s, even global relocation of teh charity sheild maybe…but a league game…don’t be bloody stupid. THE END
By: Matthew Wade on February 8, 2008
at 12:03 pm
good post Yogi and comment LB.
I dont see how boycotting an Arsenal game is going to help the situation. surely we should be marching on the prem league office at Gloucester place in London. let them know how we feel or something. we have to write to them or even just email them.
I am all for friendlies being played out of season by those clubs who want to do it but being forced to travel round the world to play a game worth six points is utterly ridiculous. have the PL just lost all their remaining credibility?
even forgetting the travelling and foreign country side of things – just having a 39th game where you play a random side is stupid. imagine that game was at a neutral ground in this country – it would still be a stupid idea.
rather than making the EPL more attractive, the PL are very close to making a mockery of the PL. the majority of foreign fans I have read comments from this morning are actually against it.
also I dont even see how this satisfies demand. if man u are selected to play in an Asian city, there are still countless other cities round the world where they are not appearing. eventually one day Man u may come to your city – so thats what, one game every 20 years at best. how on earth is that satisfying any sort of demand? surely seeing them play every week on TV is doing far more for demand?
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 12:05 pm
the globalization of football!! I love it!
LB, failed to get you man. I mean if you are an ordinary South African who loves Arsenal (Man U ?) what’s the harm in watching your dear team at the FNB stadium, Ellis park or even at Newlands? Don’t worry about the cost of transporting the team there because I am pretty sure that it will be way less than the gains. Fatigue? As it is, the season is already congested with them International friendlies, So one more little game won’t hurt that much
.
Remember that most of us, outside the U.K, also contribute alot to the welbeing of the EPL teams and thus deserve to watch ‘em live at least once in a blue moon. Since you live in SA, don’t jump in the band wagon coz the English people(no offence) are speaking from thier own perspective.
By: Sensemilla on February 8, 2008
at 12:38 pm
he globalization of football!! I love it!
LB, failed to get you man. I mean if you are an ordinary South African who loves Arsenal (Man U ?) what’s the harm in watching your dear team at the FNB stadium, Ellis park or even at Newlands? Don’t worry about the cost of transporting the team there because I am pretty sure that it will be way less than the gains. Fatigue? As it is, the season is already congested with them International friendlies, So one more little game won’t hurt that much
.
Remember that most of us, outside the U.K, also contribute alot to the well being of the EPL teams and thus deserve to watch ‘em live at least once in a blue moon. Since you live in SA, don’t jump in the band wagon coz the English people(no offence) are speaking from thier own perspective.
By: annonymous777 on February 8, 2008
at 12:53 pm
Some how with this information now out I am not surprised. I think Yogi struck on the main theme of this idea and that is to generate more money for these clubs and further their ideas of global domination of the sports entertainment industry. I live here in Toronto and I can tell you that the EPL brand is certainly on the rise. In the old days it was Manchester United shirts ion the street, I had a couple of mates who had the shirts yet didn’t know any of the players. This is changing and now we see Liverpool and Arsenal fairly well represented. Whilst I am not surprised that United and probably Chelsea are at the fore front of this initiative I am left stunned that Arsenal would rail to the cause. What we are seeing now is that the trend away from the tradition of clubs is almost complete, the foreign owners want money and lots of it… their interest is not the supporters but the wealth in their pockets.
By: Toronto on February 8, 2008
at 12:54 pm
The globalization of the EPL, I love it!
LB, failed to get you man. I mean if you are an ordinary South African who loves Arsenal (Man U ?) what’s the harm in watching your dear team at the FNB stadium, Ellis park or even at Newlands? Don’t worry about the cost of transporting the team there because I am pretty sure that it will be way less than the gains. Fatigue? As it is, the season is already congested with them International friendlies, So one more little game won’t hurt that much
.
Remember that most of us, outside the U.K, also contribute alot to the welbeing of the EPL teams and thus deserve to watch ‘em live at least once in a blue moon. Since you live in SA, don’t jump in the band wagon coz the English people(no offence) are speaking from thier own perspective.
By: annonymous777 on February 8, 2008
at 12:59 pm
I wrote the following to Arsenal this morning, I am gutted… just when did we become the same whore as the likes of Manchester United & Chelsea?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am what you may refer to as a global supporter of Arsenal Football Club. I no longer live in Britain but have supported the club for approximately 30 years, I have regularly purchased merchandise and contributed to blogging discussions, such is my love. I read yesterday that the English Premier League agreed to further look in to the possibility of adding an additional “international round” to the league effective from 2011. I have been left aghast! Such as been the change in the culture of the game in the UK that we now see many foreign owners, these people are fortune mercenaries that care nothing of the game nor the fan base that made it what it is. The true blow to myself as an ardent Arsenal fan is that I have not read a single article/press release where Arsenal have rallied against this notion of an extra international game, can you explain to me why? Arsenal have a football tradition second to none and I say that now knowing that the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea and Liverpool have already sold out. How on god’s green earth can you seemingly support the most ill conceived idea to come out of the game to date?
I am beyond the maddened phase, I am now at the “oh my god, Arsenal are selling out like every other EPL team” phase. We have a tradition and today I find myself growing disenfranchised by the idea that Arsenal see more in the dollar than they do the fans that have bleed with every player in every moment through the history of the club. This morning I hope that in the halls of Arsenal you read this in light of the growing surge by supporters to rally against this greed that seems to consumed the once great game. We are the Arsenal, you and I… we cannot condone the prostitution of the club to the highest bidder and I urge you to take the advice of fans and walk away from this poor, ill though out idea.
By: Toronto on February 8, 2008
at 1:17 pm
lol people .. it was just a proposal….!!!
By: ck on February 8, 2008
at 1:25 pm
ck – that’s the attitude that turns a proposal into reality. Unless they know how opposed people are and realise that the losses far outweigh the gains, it will be reality.
I suppose all clubs went along with the idea for fear of being left behind, but knowing Arsene Wenger I’m sure he’s dead set against it. My fear is that if this goes ahead he will not be renewing his contract in 2011 and there are a few players who will follow him out the door.
By: Passenal on February 8, 2008
at 1:46 pm
I think the Archbishop of Canterbury should take over as as chief executive of the Premier League – he is marginally less mad.
By: n5 2ha on February 8, 2008
at 2:11 pm
I agree, if the PL sells out to the devil wont some of the best players think the PL is a laughing stock?? will the likes of Fabregas want to play in a circus or a more respected league such as La Liga? the spanish would never do this.
I tell you what this does show – how far away from the fans all 20 Club chairman and club owners really are, not to mention Richard Scudamore. they have no understanding about what makes football important. the very soul of what its all about is totally insignifcant to them. If they make an extra buck, they will jump on the bandwagon without so much as a thought for the consequences.
we love football, they love money – these things are in direct opposition – but they have the power so we have no chance.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 2:12 pm
Those opposing EPL teams playing one match a season out of England because English teams are destined to play at home remind me of another group…. those that insist that an English team must have a majority (if not all) of English players.
Football as a sport is growing and like it or not football has to change to accomodate this growth.
And while we are oppossing football played out of England we may as well oppose the introduction of just anything new in football.
And LB I honestly do not understand how someone in say South Africa will be against an EPL team playing there or travelling in there cities etc. The Scums and Manscums must really be hated in South Africa then.
And games by EPL teams may even yet induce more interest in African football – both in young boys and fans interest in local teams.
By: Nameless on February 8, 2008
at 2:21 pm
[...] has caused a massive uproar. Blogs that I greatly respect, like Arseblog, Leftback, and of course A Cultured Left Foot have called out the proposal and shown it to be highly problematic. And by “highly [...]
By: the 39th parallel « 7am Kickoff on February 8, 2008
at 2:30 pm
I suspect that, in principle, Arsene Wenger is strongly opposed to this proposal.
We already know how reluctant he is to vary the club’s now customary pre-season routine in Europe (Austria, Holland & England) yet alone fly off somewhere else in the World during the actual football season.
The Arsenal Board may take a different view of the proposal, or at least be willing to give it further thought and to examine the logistics.
Either way, it’ll be interesting to hear Arsene’s considered opinion on the matter, and the language he uses too.
He may need to toe the corporate Arsenal line on this one, so I’ll be looking to ascertain whether Arsene express his true feelings on the matter or whether he simply uses coded language for us to read between the lines.
This issue is going to snowball.
By: Magneto on February 8, 2008
at 2:50 pm
Nameless, you are misunderstanding me. I love Arsenal, and these days I’m actually ashamed of myself because I miss my favourite local team, Kaizer Chiefs games because of Arsenal. Most of my friends are Arsenal and Man U fans. We have fights over these two teams who play in stadiums we have never been to.
But we also love our countries. We don’t want our local leagues undermined by foreign ones. There is no way I can support this, regardless of the fact that I have failed to love watching local football more. What I said was, if EPL teams want to promote themselves in our countries, fine. Come play friendly games against local teams. Hold clinics for youngsters, take pictures with Mandela. As an Arsenal fan I learnt to love Beckham when he came. His humility and respect for a people who owed nothing was endearing. That’s what we want.
Don’t come here, play against each other, have an interview with BBC, and fly out to play against each other far away while we count our financial and football losses. What are we then? Or most importantly, what do you think you will be to us then?
Plse don’t spoil my love for Arsenal!!!!!!
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 2:54 pm
I was shocked before but now I am numb – wenger is actually backing the proposals. he seems to be truly up for it. I know Kroenke must have had a hand in the plans but I cant beleive wenger has been hood winked into beleiving all the hype.
I am seriously beginning to doubt my faith in humanity today.
so if we embrace the plans and all goes well, then what in 20 years time? how many games are played aborad in a season then? 5 – 10? what happens to the game I grew up loving? what will my sons grow up with? I cannot accept this.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 2:55 pm
so wenger said:
“My first instinct is not be against the initiative,” the Arsenal manager said. “You have to accept that the Premier League is not just ruling day by day — people are thinking how we can improve the game.
“It is only one idea. It will only work if people respect the games; the quality of organisation, the competitive aspect of the games and the fairness of the game have to be respected.
“To promote the league and keep it the best in the world is a good idea. These priorities have to be considered and if they are, why not?”
“Ninety percent of people who love the Premier League have no access to the games,” Wenger said.
“Friendlies will not keep people interested in the game. It is not respecting people who love the game to say you can watch it on television but not live.
“I don’t want to be against it just because it is a new idea.”
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 2:57 pm
Yogi, I think you did yourself a disservice talking about it happening at the end of the season, what a difference this makes. Nowhere in the press have I found this, it’s always been ‘In January’.
Shall we look at the Spanish league for a moment, they have the same amount of teams, the same amount of competitions AND a two week holiday in the middle of the season for Christmas. Now I’m not saying that we should scrap our Christmas games but if they can find the space then so can the premier league. I do think that you would need to make it a time where there are no midweek games either side, but that should not be difficult. There would also be an advantage of playing in South Africa than Sydney but that’s just life.
Why do I think it’s not a bad idea? It’s an international league, in one breath we don’t want quotas on English players, now we suddenly want it to only have English fans watching?
Someone in Delhi or Hong Kong might be able to get the money together for a ticket to a local game but flights, accommodation a ticket to the Emirates is way beyond most overseas fans.
I admit I lived in South Africa for 5 years, I went to Arsenal v Man Utd in Johannesburg so what LB is on I don’t know as it made no difference to the local football attendances. I find that when travelling abroad that to be able to talk to locals about something like Arsenal and see their enthusiasm for the Premier league is great, it’s what makes this world a better place. The isolationist ideas of the EEC cause so much hardship to the rest of the world it is about time we actually gave something back.
What I would like to see though is a lottery of the places that the teams go to so that it would not always be decided by the richest country and give places like Nigeria, India a chance.
I do not think it will effect the title race, but it could certainly effect the relegation places for good ways as well as bad, it could revitalise some teams and it would certainly lead to better team bonding.
Normally you give a very balanced view looking at the situation from all perspectives, this time I feel you have failed.
By: Lancealittle on February 8, 2008
at 3:00 pm
Gazzap, maybe in 20 years time there will be a worldwide league instead. So instead of Arsenal playing Wigan in South Africa they will be playing Kaizer Chiefs.
LB sorry I misunderstood you the first time. I get what you are saying.
Maybe I am being greedy from a non English fan point of veiw but some of us cannot get to watch Arsenal play not just because of the money aspect but after saving for long to go watch Arsenal they fail to get VISA.
I assure you it would be earsier for Wigan to win the league than for a fan from Africa to get a VISA if he is dumb enough to say that the only reason he wants to go to England is to watch Arsenal play.
By: Nameless on February 8, 2008
at 3:06 pm
Terrible idea. I’m American and this is a terrible terrible idea. The NFL played at wembley b/c Miami was willing to give up a home game b/c they COULD NOT FILL THEIR HOME STADIUM. Additionally their season was already over as they had no chance of making the playoffs.
In England, the above would bankrupt a team. In America, the the teams operate as franchises of a MONOPOLY. There is no promotion. No relegation. They can afford not to care about home fans becasue they get TV money regardless of where they finish.
This idea totally destroys the dream every fan abroad has about visiting England for their first visit the Ashburton (as i did for the first time this yr btw). It is precisely the distance from my homeland that fostered the romance I have for the team and the league. To have vital points be at stake abroad is a complete bastardization.
Bleh.
TTM
Obama ‘08
By: twotouchmiracle on February 8, 2008
at 3:07 pm
Not sure how much you know about South African football, Lancealittle. Here we are not talking about a pre-season friendly game filled with reserve team players but a fully fledged EPL game played for points and to win a title. Five years in SA is not going to make you any wiser about local conditions and what people feel and think. Trust me, it is difficult enough to get a foreign coach to be accepted in this country. Do you wanna try a foreign league when we have our own?
Try another five years after this plan happens and let’s see. Nobody said it should only be English fans watching. What we are saying is, if you wanna watch it go to England or switch on your TV. Why is this so difficult to understand? I HAVE MY OWN LEAGUE IN SOUTH AFRICA!!!
I watch the EPL every week and I wanna see my favourite Arsenal play here sometime. But I sure as hell do not want to see the EPL here and neither does anyone close to me.
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 3:09 pm
TTM
Obama ‘08,
Why not accept “Change We Can Believe in” in football as well?
And completely off football do you think he will get nominated (and elected) or Americans will chicket out of Change?
By: Nameless on February 8, 2008
at 3:18 pm
LB what team plays ih Cape Town? They didn’t have one while I was living there, the closest that they got to your top division was Camps Bay who got to the play offs and had a ground capacity of 50! I know because I used to play on their pitch every so often.
Maybe it has moved on since I was there 10 years ago but but Greenpoint staduim is still under construction?
By: Lancealittle on February 8, 2008
at 3:18 pm
Nameless I dont know which city you live near, burt lets say the EPL choose five cities that are not anywhere near where you live. I would wager they will ‘choose’ wealthy cities. ie cities that can afford to line EPL pockets to the tune of a hundred million £ or so. if you dont happen to live near one of those cities then you wont get to see any PL games anyway. then you are stuck with having to watch it on TV anyway. you will watching some soulless unrecognisable stadium full of rich locals – there will be no fan rivalry like you see in England. the real foreign fans wont even be able to afford the tickets. I would wager that at least two of the cities will be in America.
how many of the millions (or is it billions) of people worldside who watch the EPL, will be able to actually go to the stadiums and watch? even if they get full stadiums, its still only a tiny fraction. this is not about bringing football to the world, its about money. football is already round the world via your TV set. You, as a foreign fan, already see more EPL games than the English since we are not allowed to broadcast the 3pm saturday fixtures on TV over here. Also outside of that time slot only one game is is shown at a time, whereas abroad you can access more than one game at a time on different TV stations. us poor mugs that shell out £60+ every game and have done for years are now being shit upon.
I tell you, i really enjoy watching Spanish football. But I dont expect them to come to England to play for me. If I want to watch I have a TV or I can go there and watch. Everyone has to respect everyone else. dont get me wrong, I am not anti progress, but this is not progress and this is certainly not sport.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 3:20 pm
I am in Africa Gazzap. Kenya. So the nearest city will be somewhere in South Africa. Its easier and cheaper to travel to South Africa to watch it than to London. To me it would be like the World Cup coming to South Africa.
Only that I do not think the PL will be interested in Africa. But one can hope. No?
And I wont mind La Liga coming to Kenya.
On TV football, for only US$ 35 a month I get to watch all the Arsenal games in a season save for one or two which I can get on free TV.
By: Nameless on February 8, 2008
at 3:27 pm
Gazzup you might be right about where the games take place but to say that there would be ‘watching some soulless unrecognisable stadium full of rich locals – there will be no fan rivalry like you see in England’ is just wrong, Arsenal fans die in Nigeria and places for their love of the club, do not start belittling them with holier than though attitudes, anyway how quiet can our stadium become and as for half the other teams, prawn sandwich anyone?
By: Lancealittle on February 8, 2008
at 3:28 pm
Lancealittle, the point is that we do not want to destroy Cape Town football any further. By the way, they do have Ajax Cape Town and Santos in the professional league and attendances are improving but not where they ideally should be. What do you think will happen when people realise they can just wait for EPL games?
And do you really think if the EPL does this the Germans and Portuguese will not follow suit? There so many Portuguese people in SA that they could have a team based here! I am part owner in a German language TV service in SA which is doing very well. What does that tell you?
Plse people, think about this very thoroughly before you even consider it.
By: LB on February 8, 2008
at 3:31 pm
I amnot belittling the fans, but no matter how passioante the foregin fans are the stadiums are still soulless, just as Emirates was on its first match. it had no history and neither will these stadiums. they are not linked in any way to our English football teams.
Foreign Arsenal fans are fine with me, I love all Arsenal fans, thats not my point.
You think your average Nigerian Arsenal fan will get to a match??? you are living in cloud cuckoo land and being swept along by scudamore and his promises – thats exactly what he wants so he gets enough backing to force his plans through.
also there will be a lack of fan rivalry because the top 5 are kept apart and to be honest if you have Man U v wigan, how many Wigan fans are there going to be in the stadium? Everyone will be Man u wont they?
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 3:37 pm
Interestingly, Arsene’s quotes above – see under Gazzap – do not, in my view, confirm that he’s actually in favour of the particular proposal, merely that he thinks the idea behind it shouldn’t be dismissed outright without at least giving it some consideration.
Arsene is smart enough & has the good sense to say that anything which may help to improve the game (& brand) of football generally should be explored…thats like saying he’s not against motherhood & apple pies…but this is not the same as being a keen & staunch supporter of the proposal, and I believe Arsene is indeed engaging in some doublespeak, hiding his real views whilst at the same time not wanting to publicly conflict with what the Arsenal Boardroom may feel about the matter.
By: Magneto on February 8, 2008
at 3:37 pm
Nameless lets take your example. one Arsenal game in Africa, about 5 million Arsenal fans in Africa, a stadium with a capacity of 50,000 in SA – what are your chances of getting in being from Kenya? less than the average London Arsenal red member of getting into the Emirates!
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 3:42 pm
I totally agree with you.
I live in Israel, and even the remote possibility of Arsenal playing an EPL fixture in my country does not excite me a bit. It’s wrong, and this move is at the expense of true supporters, just to earn a few more consumers. I’m all for commercializing the game, merchandise and stuff, but there are steps you mustn’t take. I see myself as a true Gooner, despite not being a Londoner, and I save money to travel to London every once in a while (I wish it could be more often, but it’s not that easy). That’s part of the experience every true fan should feel. Arsenal is a London club, playing in England, therefore I should be expected to go to London to watch Arsenal, not the other way around.
I can’t believe Arsene Wenger approves this plan.
By: Israeli Gooner on February 8, 2008
at 3:43 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm
just don’t have breakfast before leaving for the 39th match in Dubai
By: Gerard Pas on February 8, 2008
at 3:51 pm
I can be a cynical man but I find that too often I am right about things and I am no longer surprised about human beings and their actions.
I would just like to have a little bet that all the five cities are not in areas of the world that a lot of Arsenal fans would want. So the big 4 will probably get a choice of : Two American cities (one east, one west coast), Dubai, Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpa or similar SE Asian city.
Dont be surpsied to see no African cities in there.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 3:53 pm
Gazzap, I admit the chance of getting to the match is pretty low. But it is higher than that of getting to watch it in London.
And this soul thing. So being passionate about Arsenal and living and sleeping Arsenal from childhood still is not enough to make me a good enough supporter to create the soul? It can only exist in the English supporters?
Talk of old money and new money.
By: Nameless on February 8, 2008
at 3:54 pm
I can’t agree more Yogi. Also no one wants to watch Bolton play Fulham. The vast majority of oversea based fans support the top clubs (A large proportion of these probably support the top 4).
What are the odds that Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool, and Chelsea are drawn against each other or purposely kept apart to spread the big clubs out amongst the venues – either way it stinks.
If the premier league wants to play games abroad it should organise friendly tornaments with a number of teams as pre season friendlies (I’m not keen on this idea but it beats the shit out of the alternative).
The Clubs must remember that without there home fan base they are nothing or we could end up with teams relocating to China or the US.
By: Marc on February 8, 2008
at 4:04 pm
Gazzap, with the idea of playing 10 games consecutively over the weekend it would make sense to have the teams spread over the whole world, so if it’s not in europe then Africa is a real possibility (could be an arab state of course). 3 in the far east would make the TV thing very difficult.
Should we be looking at this from just an Arsenal point of view? The other Premier League Teams could have a very different view on it. They do not fill out their stadiums, play 10 European games a season, have the support around the world which helps to make the League a two tier system. This might give them more chance, is that what we hate, better competition? The way the Premier league is going it seems that we might only have 6 real contests a season, are we such glory hunters that we would prefer to have no real competition and share the winnings with Man U, Liverpool or Chelski?
More considered debate is needed, Wenger understands this and would never go and shoot his bolt like everyone here has done today.
By: Lancealittle on February 8, 2008
at 4:13 pm
I think the idea is terrible…
If they realy want to do such a thing… why not have a system in the top flight, similar to the play-offs in the championship, where a limited number of teams below 3rd place battle it out for the final champions league spot instead?
would be ecxiting and they could still stage it at the stipulated venues abroad.
Sureley thats a better idea than the crap the have proposed….
Anyone agree/ disagree?
(not that it will make any difference, as they will just go ahead regardless..)
By: tim wilkins on February 8, 2008
at 4:14 pm
your average american or asian fan is not going to be interested in half the fixtures. the other half will all be a top 5 club V a club with little foreign support. the top 5 club will have all the supporters in the stadium. as an Arsenal fan I should support that because we are one of the top 5 clubs, but I dont because I beleive in fairness and its not fair on the smaller clubs. I dont see how playing Bolton V fulham in Asia is really going to increase support for these teams. as we have already established, foreign fans are already very passionate about their team. they cannot be swayed to support fulham just because they play in a nearby stadium. these are dyed in the wool Arsenal/Man U fans.
Nameless I have already said once that I dont doubt your status as a fan and I already said that Emirates stadium lacked a soul on its first few fixtures or more and that was with a tradional fan base with opposition fans at one end of the ground. Dont you think the experience would be a bit fake? I mean it wouldn’t be like being among the Emirates crowd.
If you want to see Arsenal in a local setting then lobby the club to do a friendly tour to your country but dont ruin the premier league. Fact is, wenger does not beleive in doing far off tours because its not good for the players. maybe when we change managers Arsenal will come and play in your country in the summer.
I understand that if the chances of you seeing Arsenal increase by even 1% then you are happy but if you are an Arsenal fan think about the sporting side of it rather than being purely selfish.
What if we lose to Everton in Kuala Lumpa while Man u thrash Derby in Los Angeles. How is that fair to the league? If we lose the league by one point because of that I would be very angry. the draw cannot be fair. look at Man city, they finished near the bottom last season, so in theory when the fixtures came out Arsenal could have faced Man City while Man U get Reading. as we know Man City improved considerably at the end of the summer. So ours would be a far harder fixture – that is simply not fair and goes against any sporting justice that you have to expect in any sport.
as I say, take out the foreign country aspect and this still makes no sense to me. this is not about whether foreign fans are worthy so dont try and make that the argument.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 4:59 pm
Lancelittle. The proposal is to have 10 games in 5 cities not 10 cities. I dont know if you read that?
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 5:00 pm
This entire issue is complete and utter madness. I don’t care about the globalisation of the EPL brand… I care about Arsenal and the traditions of English Football which are being eroded faster than white cliffs of Dove. How on earth can you have a competitive game whether in the middle of the season or elsewhere, that pits two teams against each other for the 3rd time? It is not fair on the clubs chosen to play against Arsenal, Manchester United etc because their brand is nothing compared to the big boys. If you were a neutral and went to one of these so called games, and saw Arsenal play flowing football against say Wigan… do you honestly believe people are going to walk away saying “wow, Wigan really caught the eye”. This proposed plan is sheer madness, lining the pockets of the big brands still further whilst creating an ever larger gulf between the haves and have nots! I support Arsenal, we would be one of the teams to benefit (at least financially) but it is a lousy proposal for the game in general. These people need to go back to scheduling tours that have no meaning and shut the hell up!
By: Toronto on February 8, 2008
at 5:18 pm
marc, I prefer your idea of forcing the clubs to play their pre-season friendlies in places like US, Africa and Asia. Every prem team would have to play 2 tournaments in 2 different cities consisting of 2 games in each place. they would be just like the Emirates cup when we had PSG, Inter and Valencia.
so Arsenal would have to scrap their traditional Austria, Holland and Emirates games but would have to do this instead. as long as every prem team had a similar schedule in terms of travel then that would be fair.
You could even have a local team in the tournament – so 3 EPL teams plus one local team e.g. that country’s champions.
The fans around the world get to see their teams and infact there would be 4 fixtures instead of 1 thus far increasing the chances that any fan gets to see their team.
the teams that play in each mini tounament could be drawn out of a hat so Arsenal COULD face Man U or any of the top teams. I remember how i felt after the Ajax and Emirates cups I was really that we won those cups and they did mean something. I think an idea like this would bring effectively competitive games to the world and be fair at the same time.
Perhaps even in seasons where there is no WC or EC there could even be a third tournament in May or even the charity shield could be moved around the world like the england games were moved around the country.
This beats the shit out of a 39th game idea.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 5:19 pm
*really pleased
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 5:21 pm
gazzup, I did know that it was 5 cities, that makes my whole point, they would have to be spread arond the world for the timezones.
They are thinking of taking it abroad as it is growing in the rest of the world. This means that there are millions of people out there who have not yet decided which team to support, unlike this country where it is now saturated as far as supporters and their allegencies are concerned. This means that overseas the smaller teams do have a good chance of getting a lifelong fan. A large ammount of friends started to support their team as it was the first match they went to see, not because their father told them that was the team that they had to support.
I would like to discuss this further but work has finnished for the day and I’m going down the pub, have a good weekend.
By: Lancealittle on February 8, 2008
at 5:23 pm
Today I was amazed that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the Soviet style Socialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about capitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into Stalin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”. See, look at this:
“”I guess its something to to with believing there are types of loyalty other than brand loyalty. Its to do with recognising there are types of value other than pounds and pence.”
If not brand loayalty what is it? Clubs evolve: players change managers change, even terraces change. Is it the name? Brand loyalty then. Is it the place? Parochial patriotism.”
This guy can’t even IMAGINE the possibility of some organization being different from a for profit one. Nothing can make things tick apart from money. And deluded patriotism, apparently. But it’s not true. It’s what we are lead to believe everyday, but it’s not true. It doesn’t only apply to football but it’s a good example because of all the passion people put into it. Only to feel betrayed then. Except those who buy the capitalist model for clubs: if you don’t like one club because they’re not winning enough or don’t buy the lateast superstar model, go to the other one, who cares. All we can do is consume. Pick this team or this other one, this megacorporation to buy or the one next door. Is that freedom? No I don’t think so. You can’t get involved, you can’t change things. Just pick between the almost identical options that we give you. Is that democratic? Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
“Millions of people worldwide clearly find the ‘idea’ of EPL football thrilling. What is wrong with finding a way they can share the live experience? Of course football is a social glue. Can it only be local? The World Cup suggests otherwise.
Actually you know, I never mentioned pounds and pence and I’ve no real desire to see the Spice Girls, but Man U vs Real followed by the Spice Girls? My youngish kids could hardly imagine a better afternoon if they tried. ”
He (or lots of kids anyway) probably has no problem with eating in mcdonald’s every day either. Is that good for him?
How can you be free to choose when your will is being artificially created by agressive brands? By the idea of instant success and instant gratification? When thinking independently is seen as stupid? Etc.
Oh, and I’m not even english, never been to england and don’t support any small club. But still I think this prostitution of football, as well as the prostitution of every aspect of life, is a sad state of affairs, specially when people don’t even think about the possibility of fighting it.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:36 pm
Today I was amazed that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the Soviet style Socialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about capitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into Stalin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”. See, look at this:
“”I guess its something to to with believing there are types of loyalty other than brand loyalty. Its to do with recognising there are types of value other than pounds and pence.”
If not brand loayalty what is it? Clubs evolve: players change managers change, even terraces change. Is it the name? Brand loyalty then. Is it the place? Parochial patriotism.”
This guy can’t even IMAGINE the possibility of some organization being different from a for profit one. Nothing can make things tick apart from money. And deluded patriotism, apparently. But it’s not true. It’s what we are lead to believe everyday, but it’s not true. It doesn’t only apply to football but it’s a good example because of all the passion people put into it. Only to feel betrayed then. Except those who buy the capitalist model for clubs: if you don’t like one club because they’re not winning enough or don’t buy the lateast superstar model, go to the other one, who cares. All we can do is consume. Pick this team or this other one, this megacorporation to buy or the one next door. Is that freedom? No I don’t think so. You can’t get involved, you can’t change things. Just pick between the almost identical options that we give you. Is that democratic? Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
“Millions of people worldwide clearly find the ‘idea’ of EPL football thrilling. What is wrong with finding a way they can share the live experience? Of course football is a social glue. Can it only be local? The World Cup suggests otherwise.
Actually you know, I never mentioned pounds and pence and I’ve no real desire to see the Spice Girls, but Man U vs Real followed by the Spice Girls? My youngish kids could hardly imagine a better afternoon if they tried. ”
He (or lots of kids anyway) probably has no problem with eating in mcdonald’s every day either. Is that good for him?
How can you be free to choose when your will is being artificially created by agressive brands? By the idea of instant success and instant gratification? When thinking independently is seen as stupid? Etc.
Oh, and I’m not even english, never been to england and don’t support any small club. But still I think this prostitution of football, as well as the prostitution of every aspect of life, is a sad state of affairs, specially when people don’t even think about the possibility of fighting it.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:37 pm
team to play Blackburn?
Lehmann
Sagna Gallas Senderos/Toure/gilberto Clichy
Hleb Cesc Flam/Gilberto Walcott
Eduardo Ade
the one player we need fit is Flam. everyone else we can deal with.
does Toure really have to play on Saturday??? that IS pointless.
By: gazzap on February 8, 2008
at 5:37 pm
Today I was amazed that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
———-
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the Soviet style Socialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about capitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into Stalin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”. See, look at this:
“”I guess its something to to with believing there are types of loyalty other than brand loyalty. Its to do with recognising there are types of value other than pounds and pence.”
If not brand loayalty what is it? Clubs evolve: players change managers change, even terraces change. Is it the name? Brand loyalty then. Is it the place? Parochial patriotism.”
This guy can’t even IMAGINE the possibility of some organization being different from a for profit one. Nothing can make things tick apart from money. And deluded patriotism, apparently. But it’s not true. It’s what we are lead to believe everyday, but it’s not true. It doesn’t only apply to football but it’s a good example because of all the passion people put into it. Only to feel betrayed then. Except those who buy the capitalist model for clubs: if you don’t like one club because they’re not winning enough or don’t buy the lateast superstar model, go to the other one, who cares. All we can do is consume. Pick this team or this other one, this megacorporation to buy or the one next door. Is that freedom? No I don’t think so. You can’t get involved, you can’t change things. Just pick between the almost identical options that we give you. Is that democratic? Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
“Millions of people worldwide clearly find the ‘idea’ of EPL football thrilling. What is wrong with finding a way they can share the live experience? Of course football is a social glue. Can it only be local? The World Cup suggests otherwise.
Actually you know, I never mentioned pounds and pence and I’ve no real desire to see the Spice Girls, but Man U vs Real followed by the Spice Girls? My youngish kids could hardly imagine a better afternoon if they tried. ”
He (or lots of kids anyway) probably has no problem with eating in mcdonald’s every day either. Is that good for him?
How can you be free to choose when your will is being artificially created by agressive brands? By the idea of instant success and instant gratification? When thinking independently is seen as stupid? Etc.
Oh, and I’m not even english, never been to england and don’t support any small club. But still I think this prostitution of football, as well as the prostitution of every aspect of life, is a sad state of affairs, specially when people don’t even think about the possibility of fighting it.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:38 pm
My comments are not getting published and not because of moderation. What’s going on?
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:39 pm
I’ll try once more:
Today I was amazed to see that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
———-
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the Soviet style Socialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about capitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into Stalin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”. See, look at this:
“”I guess its something to to with believing there are types of loyalty other than brand loyalty. Its to do with recognising there are types of value other than pounds and pence.”
If not brand loayalty what is it? Clubs evolve: players change managers change, even terraces change. Is it the name? Brand loyalty then. Is it the place? Parochial patriotism.”
This guy can’t even IMAGINE the possibility of some organization being different from a for profit one. Nothing can make things tick apart from money. And deluded patriotism, apparently. But it’s not true. It’s what we are lead to believe everyday, but it’s not true. It doesn’t only apply to football but it’s a good example because of all the passion people put into it. Only to feel betrayed then. Except those who buy the capitalist model for clubs: if you don’t like one club because they’re not winning enough or don’t buy the lateast superstar model, go to the other one, who cares. All we can do is consume. Pick this team or this other one, this megacorporation to buy or the one next door. Is that freedom? No I don’t think so. You can’t get involved, you can’t change things. Just pick between the almost identical options that we give you. Is that democratic? Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
“Millions of people worldwide clearly find the ‘idea’ of EPL football thrilling. What is wrong with finding a way they can share the live experience? Of course football is a social glue. Can it only be local? The World Cup suggests otherwise.
Actually you know, I never mentioned pounds and pence and I’ve no real desire to see the Spice Girls, but Man U vs Real followed by the Spice Girls? My youngish kids could hardly imagine a better afternoon if they tried. ”
He (or lots of kids anyway) probably has no problem with eating in mcdonald’s every day either. Is that good for him?
How can you be free to choose when your will is being artificially created by agressive brands? By the idea of instant success and instant gratification? When thinking independently is seen as stupid? Etc.
Oh, and I’m not even english, never been to england and don’t support any small club. But still I think this prostitution of football, as well as the prostitution of every aspect of life, is a sad state of affairs, specially when people don’t even think about the possibility of fighting it.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:41 pm
:S
I keep trying but nothing happens. This short comments go through but the long one is rejected for some reason. It just doesn’t appear, without even saying it went into moderation. This is too frustrating in a day like today.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:45 pm
What is going on with this site? Why was my comment not posted?
By: marcus on February 8, 2008
at 5:48 pm
I’m having the same problem, marcus. What was your comment about?
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:51 pm
I’ll try once more in a slightly different way…:
Today I was amazed to see that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
———-
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the S_viet style S_cialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about c_pitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into St_lin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”. See, look at this:
“”I guess its something to to with believing there are types of loyalty other than brand loyalty. Its to do with recognising there are types of value other than pounds and pence.”
If not brand loayalty what is it? Clubs evolve: players change managers change, even terraces change. Is it the name? Brand loyalty then. Is it the place? Parochial patriotism.”
This guy can’t even IMAGINE the possibility of some organization being different from a for profit one. Nothing can make things tick apart from money. And deluded patriotism, apparently. But it’s not true. It’s what we are lead to believe everyday, but it’s not true. It doesn’t only apply to football but it’s a good example because of all the passion people put into it. Only to feel betrayed then. Except those who buy the c_pitalist model for clubs: if you don’t like one club because they’re not winning enough or don’t buy the lateast superstar model, go to the other one, who cares. All we can do is consume. Pick this team or this other one, this megacorporation to buy or the one next door. Is that freedom? No I don’t think so. You can’t get involved, you can’t change things. Just pick between the almost identical options that we give you. Is that democratic? Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
“Millions of people worldwide clearly find the ‘idea’ of EPL football thrilling. What is wrong with finding a way they can share the live experience? Of course football is a social glue. Can it only be local? The World Cup suggests otherwise.
Actually you know, I never mentioned pounds and pence and I’ve no real desire to see the Spice Girls, but Man U vs Real followed by the Spice Girls? My youngish kids could hardly imagine a better afternoon if they tried. ”
He (or lots of kids anyway) probably has no problem with eating in mcd_nald’s every day either. Is that good for him?
How can you be free to choose when your will is being artificially created by agressive brands? By the idea of instant success and instant gratification? When thinking independently is seen as stupid? Etc.
Oh, and I’m not even english, never been to england and don’t support any small club. But still I think this prostitution of football, as well as the prostitution of every aspect of life, is a sad state of affairs, specially when people don’t even think about the possibility of fighting it.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:51 pm
Maybe it’s about the lenght? I’ll try cutting it into two or three smaller comments maybe…
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:52 pm
Length I mean, obviously.
Let’s see:
Today I was amazed to see that, although not a lot, but some, people where supporting this stuff. So I posted this on the Guardian, which more or less shows my opinion. The stuff between inverted commas is me quoting a couple of guys with whom I of course disagreed:
———-
“What next, state aid for struggling teams? I’m always amazed how football turns normally sensible people into cheerleaders for the Soviet style Socialism.
I know, let’s run football clubs as charities? Better still, let’s take the competitoin out of football! Then no one will be relegated from the League… Christ!”
Yes, don’t complain about capitalism ’cause that automatically turns you into Stalin. Same old sad argument.
No one has a problem with competition in sport. According to a set of rules, you play another team, you try to beat them, fine. It’s fun, we all like it. But clubs mean something to people. They feel they contribute to them and try to make them better. That’s what all clubs were about when they started. Not profit. Not filling some cinical millionaire’s pockets. And when people put their souls into clubs it’s normal for them to feel frustrated if the clubs shows they’re just “consumers”.
(continues)
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:56 pm
AW has seriously gone down in my estimation. I cannot believe that he was condemning SAF for his little jaunt to Saudi and now he is all for it? I am speechless!
By: Passenal on February 8, 2008
at 5:56 pm
No, it doesn’t work either. Yogi, please help.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 5:56 pm
Just to respond to a few comments:
Marcus: Sorry, I pressed delete on your moderated comment which contained some really good points. I did warn you I was IT illiterate but had not expected to prove it so disasterously.
Lancealittle – 3pm. Let’s look at the Spanish. They do indeed have the same size division but have one less cup competition and the Copa Del Rey has fewer rounds so no, they do not play the same number of games. Secondly, the Spanish season is longer because the Primera Liga appear to have half a brain. They extend their season to accommodate the midwinter break. The FA in England forbid the EPL from doing just that because they want the FA Cup Final to be the final game of the season. And we wonder why the clubs are selfish and unco-operative?
You rightly point out that the article had considerable bias. That is simply because I do not see the benefit to Arsenal FC. They may make more money from one game than they do in a month of normal matches but in an era when managers are constantly bemoaning injuries caused by tiredness, it is farcical to produce an additional game that unbalances a season. This is purely a step into the world of the Harlem Globetrotters and has nothing to do with competition.
You want more considered debate about this. Well, have the EPL put it up for debate? NO. It is a done deal unless people react and they are doing so.
No-one should deny the right to see a game but is naive to suggest or even dare to hope that they will be spread around the world fairly. The only Arfrican country that will be considered is South Africa because the EPL have already laid down a criteria that the infrastructure must be there to support this venture. By a rather vague and strange coincidence this will kick off the season after the World Cup is hosted there. How weird is that?
The likely venues will be two in the US; a similar number in the Far East/Australia and one in either South Africa or South Africa, not Ghana, Nigeria, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Ivory Coast, Togo. South Africa is the only country that the EPL is interested in exploiting. This is purely and simply a cynical marketing ploy. End of.
There will not be a single match broadcasting deal available – that you can guarantee – because the only ones that will get viewing figures worth anything to advertisers will be those involving the ‘Big Four’ and maybe Tottenham and Newcastle.
Do not be deceived by the fantasy that nations who perhaps are more deserving of having the match in terms of economic benefits to their nation will get them. The EPL simply are not interested in going there because the advertisers will not pay enough.
YW
By: Yogi's Warrior on February 8, 2008
at 6:02 pm
NEN
I have had nothing in moderation from you at all today. Not sure what the problem is.
YW
By: Yogi's Warrior on February 8, 2008
at 6:05 pm
NEN
No sooner have I said that than six appear. Therein is the reason. Akismet thinks you are trying to bombard the site with Spam.
YW
By: Yogi's Warrior on February 8, 2008
at 6:07 pm
F*ck. Sorry then. Delete all of them bar one. But it’s still weird. I posted one only first. So why would it think it’s spam? Then I posted the rest. I guess maybe because of the lenght or some key words.
Oh well. I wasn’t made for wordpress.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 8, 2008
at 6:16 pm
As an overseas fan, I think this idea is absolute lunacy. How the hell is this going to work? Who’s going to play Man United 3 times?
Last night on skysports, Scudamore said that January would be the ideal time to schedule these overseas games because there’s less fixture congestion. Hello?! Isn’t there the small matter of the African Cup of Nations every two years???
The irony and the timing of all this also strikes me badly. I refer to the fact that in recent weeks, overseas gooners who subscribe to Setanta Sports have been massively disappointed at not being able to have access to Arsenal TV. Over at the goonerholic.com website they’ve been working on the problems that UK subscribers to Virgin Media have been having and it looks like they’re getting some response.
But we who live outside the UK are left out. Why? Because goonerholic.com unearthed a little known rule that the PL in its infinite wisdom invented. Apparently for regions outside the UK third party channels cannot carry more than two PL club channels. In Australia those two slots are taken up by Man United and Liverpool. In North America, it’s Man United and Chelsea. I’m in the middle of putting together some kind of letter to the PL from American and Canadian gooners about this. If the PL is so damned interested in taking advantage of our money, this is no way to do it.
For the best column I’ve yet seen trashing this “global PL” idea, check out Bobby McMahon’s piece on the website for the Fox Soccer Channel. McMahon’s a Scotsman who lives in Canada and is FSC’s resident analyst, and is easily one of the best football analysts I’ve ever read:
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/BobbyMcMahon
By: marcus on February 8, 2008
at 6:20 pm
Me gusto mucho tu Blog, y me encantaría un intercambio de enlaces.
Para enlazarme por favor coloca el nombre de mi Blog en mayúscula:
MUNDO FUTBOLERO BLOG
http://mundofutboleroblog.blogspot.com
Si tienes otros blogs espero que me enlaces en ellos también. Me gustaría que me pases este dato de tu Blog: País en el cual fue creado. Este último dato es necesario para poder colocarte en algunas de las secciones de Links que se encuentran en mi Blog.
Un abrazo.
By: MUNDO FUTBOLERO BLOG on February 8, 2008
at 6:52 pm
Scudmore has it all wrong. Really, what the EPL needs to do is find more good looking players, create teams based on looks rather than talent. Go the way of the music industry. Think of the potential of a stadium filled with screaming teenage girls! The noise would be deafening! Market to the kids, this is where the real money is.
By: setpeace on February 8, 2008
at 7:37 pm
what is it with our players !!! there like a bunch of tarts, wenger says we could be without 10 players for monday, so much so he’s thinking of rushing toure back into playing (who’s only just back from injury himself) then you have players like van persie and rosicky getting nurse maided through the whole season.
wenger has millions to spend and he knows we have injury proned players (we all know the names) he knew the african nations were coming, he sold but still refused to buy.
it doesn’t make sense why not try adding to what we had ?
after all arsene you do realise we are in the hunt for 3 trophies !!! .
By: djp on February 8, 2008
at 8:13 pm
All the injuries are one more reason why the 39th game is absurd to me. Yeah it would be nice to see Arsenal play with my own eyes and not a camera’s, but I don’t feel like it’s the club’s responsibility to bring the game to me. And at the expense of more games to tire out the players? or a third game which can never promise a fair unfolding of circumstances for some teams (things are already unfair enough for some teams!). As has been mentioned, global fixtures are about money, not the game, and quantity versus quality is a dead end in my opinion. Just like friendlies during the regular club season, WHY? Why not respect the human body’s need to rest, over filling all available openings with yet one more game?
I can understand the cries from fans who will never get a chance to see a game, unless it comes to a major city on their continent, and sure, if we’re going to be truly democratic, we need to consider every fan’s opinion, but we also need to put the quality of the game first, no? For me, as one of these fans, the thought of going to watch Arsenal play in the US does not appeal to me when weighed against the negatives of staging these matches. It’s true that nothing beats the real thing, but I can placate myself with TV, and if I could choose, I would prefer to watch less matches, where the players were fresher and teams were less handicapped by injury.
By: setpeace on February 8, 2008
at 9:33 pm
Now that I’ve read another AW interview, which was more in depth, I see that I may have been unfair to him in suggesting that he was all for the proposal. On reflection he has to respect his employers wishes and not come out against something they are in favour of. He’ll probably find a way to make it work as he does with most of these crackpot notions such as the current home grown rule and the possible 6 + 5 rule. If he can get away with it, I wouldn’t be surprised if he played a CC type team.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece on the matter and I’m ready to move on.
It’s a worry Gazzap that we are down to the bare bones – how unlucky can you get? I really hope Arsene doesn’t rush Kolo back because he did not look right the other day and after such a dissapointing exit I don’t see how he could be in the right frame of mind to raise himself for the game. I also don’t understand why Diaby was allowed to join up with the French squad if he was injured at Man City, yet he’s now not fit to face Blackburn?
By: Passenal on February 8, 2008
at 10:30 pm
How can you predict having 10 players injured in one season?
For that kind of prediction, we need someone who luckly enough disappeard from this blog……Unless he changed his name, again??
G4E
By: Gunner4Ever on February 8, 2008
at 10:35 pm
G4E – I think the style would still be noticeable despite any name change!
Fortunately, Blackburn have also got injury problems too. Clearly my prayers for the Arsenal players health and fitness are falling on deaf ears – must try harder!
By: Passenal on February 8, 2008
at 10:38 pm
DJP – very good point about the players who get the special treatment (remember how Henry chose his games towards the end, he was wrapped in cotton wool), but you know Wenger better than I do, he’s tight, he doesn’t like buying a ready made player, even though fans see the need. He’ll say he doesn’t need new players while they’re winning and top of the table, the squad are coping, but your frustration is undertandable, especially when you know he’ll bring Bert back in.
By: Bones on February 8, 2008
at 11:19 pm
course you cant predict injuries no one can.but if you have the same players becoming injured on a regular basis you have to start thinking of ways around that.
no matter how talented a player if you keep on breaking down your no use to anyone you have to look at alternatives, ferguson knew saha would never last a season what happens ? he buys tevez if he hadn’t they would be in the **it right now.
that’s why you have a transfer window, gives you a chance to look at the situation in january, with the african nations, diarra leaving and van persie and rosicky breaking down every two minutes and big games coming up wenger should have seriously looked at getting 1 or 2 players in.
because if we end up trophyless one of the main reasons will be if our key players get injured and as we’ve seen in the carling cup already our fringe players aren’t up to the mark.
By: djp on February 8, 2008
at 11:56 pm
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By: Top Posts « WordPress.com on February 9, 2008
at 12:00 am
“eally, what the EPL needs to do is find more good looking players, create teams based on looks rather than talent.”
This already happens. Same talent, better looks, they go for the looks. I mean with 10 year old boys. Scouts and (especially) representatives do not only look for footballing talent. At least not all of them. They want the one who will give them more money, plain and simple. It’s how free market works. Own interest first.
By: Non Edible Nacho on February 9, 2008
at 8:20 am
I am not surprised at this latest load of crap ideas coming from the clowns in the FA. Sorry to all foreign fans of Arsenal but this is our team in England where it belongs. Want to watch overseas football watch the international matches, international; not repeat not English matches. You are not forced to support Arsenal, you support them because they are Arsenal. Everyone else may pussyfoot around but I for one will not. If you dont want to support arsenal then have your own team called Arsenal and support them in your own country, no problem but leave The Arsenal in England. And before anyone starts I dont live in England now but many many miles away but I support The Arsenal, the team I supported when I lived in England 37 years ago.
By: OLD TIMER on February 9, 2008
at 12:13 pm
Great blog!!!
allways enjoy reading
thanx for the time and effort
really interesting read that
thanx alot
By: >>>> Watch live sports now on February 9, 2008
at 5:14 pm
I agree with Yogi and many of you wholeheartedly. I actually agree with Arsene who, though agrees to ‘explore it’, points out a few criteria based on which we should look into the possibility:
1. Competitive quality – this may throw some more uncertainty, hence excitement into the race. But with travelling, fatigue, different type of support, pitches, etc. factored into it, how can you guarantee the quality of the game? But if no point is at stake, that’d be like another pre-season marketing trip.
2. Fairness – which I think it isn’t, by (a) adding another game where ManU could play Derby and we could play Chelsea, for example; (b) having teams go different distances, playing in different time zones, etc, what happens if we go to Asia with terrible jet lag and some teams go to Dubai? (c) different conditions of pitches, support, etc. As Yogi pointed out, the title might have been decided earlier than the end of the season, but relegation does seem to stay up in the air until the very bitter end. What if Derby give up (as they have already now!) and let, say, ManU take 3 easy points while Fulham or Wigan struggle against like Villa or Everton, while we fight against someone like Liverpool? I mean there’s no way you could keep it fair, even if you have a draw or something. I can go on and on.
3. Promotion of the game – it does make some sense if we say we’d like to ‘give something’ to the 90% of fans overseas. But is playing a 3-point match abroad the right way, that’s my question – and Arsene’s.
4. Money – Arsene puts it well “If it’s just for the money, I say forget it. If it’ll promote the game in an innovative way but without sacrificing the principles above, I think we can explore.”
I agree with him in principle. I don’t read it as that he ’supports the idea.’ He made it very clear that he’s all for innovation, but against just making money and nothing else out of it because we have many other ways to generate revenue. He just ‘doesn’t want to say “no” before looking into it.’ I think he’s right. But I just don’t see how we can make it work according to these principles above. Maybe some smarter people can, I just don’t see it but, like Arsene, I’m open to hearing what they have to say.
And I’m from Hong Kong, one of the cities that could potentially ‘benefit’ from such a plan should it get inplemented; now living in London. Spending my holiday now back home these few days, I’ve chatted with my father (a good old ManU fan btw, who’s never been to Old Trafford) and my uncle (Liverpool fan who’s never been to Anfield either) and apparently even these fans don’t like the idea because it’s potentially very unfair and disruptive to the English game.
By: Lou on February 9, 2008
at 7:05 pm
Guys, Vital Arsenal is featuring a few good articles on this. THere are also some links to online petitions, to which many fans have signed up. If you have a strong opinion about this, do go over there and see what others think.
Click through my name please.
By: Lou on February 9, 2008
at 8:35 pm
Excellent article, there is however a very erudite counter-argument which you might like to read. Warning; it is a very long read:
http://cwoff.com/blog/sport/football/2008-02-09/the-premierships-global-powerplay/
By: Dave on February 10, 2008
at 10:05 pm